Two Headed 827

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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:56 pm

Have looked up Hayes manual (both old one and latest one) and tried to figure out what these colourful wires mean and here is my guess.

For Si 6 Dials
Connector - 1 (Si)
1 NR Brown / Red (orange) ?
2 GW Green / White Direction Indicator w Lamp
3 O Orange Spare?
4 WN White / Brown Oil Pressure w Lamp
5 - - -
6 BY Black / Yellow Brake Fluid w Lamp
7 LGY Light Green / Yellow Panel Illumi Lamp
8 - - -
9 SY Slate / Yellow ?
10 LGR Light Green / Red Oil Pressure Gauge

Connector - 2 (Si)
1 BO Black / Orange ?
2 BR Black / Red Speed Transducer
3 - - -
4 - - -
5 - - -
6 R Red Panel Illumi Lamp Reostat Resister

Connector - 3 (Si)
1 WB White / Black Ignition Coil (Tacho Meter)
2 YR Yellow / Red ABS w Light
3 OR Orange/ Red ?
4 GO Green / Orange Spare?
5 RB Red / Black Side Lamp w Light
6 P Purple ?

Connector - 4 (Si)
1 GU Green / Blue Coolant Temp Gauge
2 - - -
3 GB Green / Black Fulet Level Tank Unit
4 BP Black / Purple Fulet Level Tank Unit
5 U Blue Spare Warning Light
6 BW Black / White Head Light w Light
7 UG Blue / Green Head Light w Light
8 LGU Light Green / Blue Trailer Indicator Warning Light
9 B Black ?
10 GR Green / Red Direction Indicator w Lamp

and for Vitesse 4 dials

Connector - 1 (Vt)
1 B Black ?
2 GB Green / Black Fuel Tank Level Unit?
3 BR Black / Red Speed Transducer
4 BP Black / Purple Fuel Tank Level Unit
5 BO Black Orange Door Lock?
6 NY Brown / Yellow No Charge w Light (To Alternator)
7 OR Orange / Red empty
8 U Blue empty
9 GO Green / Orange empty

Connector - 2 (Vt)
1 - - -
2 GR Green / Red Indicator w Light
3 GW Green / White Indicator w Light
4 BW Black / White Main Beam w Light
5 UG Blue / Green Main Beam w Light
6 WB White / Black Ignition Coil (Tacho Meter)
7 - - -
8 B Black
9 RB Red / Black Side Light w Light
10 LGU Light Green / Blue Trailer Warning Light

Connector - 3 (Vt)
1 YR Yellow / Red ABS w Light
2 LGY Light Green / Yellow Switch on Power Supply?
3 BY Black / Yellow Brake Fluid Level Switch
4 - - -
5 WN White / Brown Oil P W Light
6 SY Slate / Yellow Switch Illumination?
7 GU Green / Blue Coolant Temp G or Fuel ECU?
8 - - -
9 - - -
10 RW Red / White Panel Illumination?
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:16 pm

I have looked through the table many time and made conversion table

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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:24 pm

I will chop the 6 dials loom on Si, but just in case if things go terribly wrong, I wanted to make sure it is reversible.
So I copied all the colour coding to the area where I will cut the wires.
If needed, I can reconnect the looms by matching the colour coding to each other.
Image

Then I fitted the terminals without changing the combination and order of the loom.
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Finally fitting the loom/connector for 4 dials, which I got them with the 4 dials counter I bought.
I wanted to keep the loom tidy and clean but, oh dear it is messy and confusing!
I admire car electrician!
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Last edited by epic1400cs on Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:30 pm

So its time to test it - I know its going to be full of no-nos but I need to try.

Image

The result is, some of them worked some of them, I don't have a clue!

charging light NG (not coming on when key rotate) :roll:
Brake w lamp ok
Pgmfi light ok
Oil w lamp ok

Hazard works ok
Indicator works but very fast (why!?) :shock:
Rev counter ok
Speedo not known (I forgot floor jack) :mrgreen:

Light warning light ok
Upper beam warning light ok
No illumination to the panel :twisted:

Fuel gauge ok
Water temp ok

I am getting there!
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by Richard Moss » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:54 pm

Keep up the good work. A chap called Brian Gunn converted a 1992 827 (mk2 2) from 4 dial to 6 - if you can track him down via AROnline then he may be able to offer some advice.

Personally I hate the 6 dial dash and I think you're doing the right thing :)
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:43 pm

That's good going! The Charge warning light not working could be something as simple as a bulb in the instrument cluster, have you checked the bulb?

Also with the indicators, could be you have a bulb out somewhere - that's the usual cause of fast flashing.

A very good result so far, keep up the good work!
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:58 pm

Richard Moss wrote:Keep up the good work. A chap called Brian Gunn converted a 1992 827 (mk2 2) from 4 dial to 6 - if you can track him down via AROnline then he may be able to offer some advice.
Personally I hate the 6 dial dash and I think you're doing the right thing :)
Thank you for your kind word and great tip - I will definitely contact Mr Brian for his advice. :)
I personally like the 4 dial, too, and this is because I drive 89 Honda Accord that has very similar cluster.
scoobyh123 wrote:That's good going! The Charge warning light not working could be something as simple as a bulb in the instrument cluster, have you checked the bulb?
Also with the indicators, could be you have a bulb out somewhere - that's the usual cause of fast flashing.
A very good result so far, keep up the good work!
Thank you, Sir!
Good point, of course I haven't checked the bulbs, yet! :oops:
I need to check those basics before going further!

For the indicators, yes, I know exactly what you mean but the bulbs are fine.
Strange thing is that hazard is working fine and before I remove the 6 dials, the indicators worked fine, too.
Do the hazard use different relay than the indicators?
It may not be related but obviously this car(s?) don't have rear indicators, so I am wondering it might be something to do with it?
Oh my god car electric is like black hole to me, I can't see where I am going :lol:
Anyway, I will check the all the bulbs on the cluster first.
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:32 pm

Something silly somewhere on the indicators and as far as i know the hazards and indicators use the same relay.

Are the indicator warning lights working ok in the new cluster?
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by deano » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:17 pm

The dash is non airbag, Mk1 sterring wheel and passenger shelf

But the door cards are Mk2
Piped seats too
1993 Rover 827 SLI Fastback Mk2
1999 Rover 825 Sterling Saloon Mk2 (HGF)
------------------
Previously
1996 Rover 825 Sterling Coupe Mk2
1993 Rover 827 Sterling Saloon Mk2
1990 Rover 827 Sterling Saloon Mk1
1972 Rover P6 2000TC

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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:43 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:Something silly somewhere on the indicators and as far as i know the hazards and indicators use the same relay.
Are the indicator warning lights working ok in the new cluster?
Thanks, for the info!
The indicator warning lights work fine on the new cluster.

I have checked the indicator bulbs on the corner and wings are all fine and turn on.
Also the instrument illumination bulbs and the charging warning light bulbs are fine, too.
I am looking into the wiring chart at the moment.
mrpcpc wrote:I converted my Mk1c Vitesse to the 6 dial clocks but I never cut anything, I just verified all cables and dismantled the connectors.
The worrying part is that the manuals show the connector from back to front , or from the back, so the mistake can be made that the cables are changed over from the wrong end of the connector.(if you know what \i mean :? )
The orange wire is the cruise light if i remember rightly.
I also converted a Mk1c Sterling to 6 dial too but this was done by changing the dash loom and a slight modification to it also.
These conversions should be taken on with the utmost care.
I have some posts somewhere (I think :? ) where I explained things in more detail
The dash illumination wires needed to be swapped over by the air conditioning ECU to work(red/redblack stripe) in the Mk1c Sterling which is virtually identical to the Mk2 wiring, albeit set out differently in the respective manuals.
ps, Have you connected the earth cable onto the back of the clocks ? (there is usually a braided earth on the Mk1)
Thanks for the information, much appreciate.
I guess you are looking at the manual published by Rover?
I only have Haynes manual but, are there any noticeable difference in the electric circuit table?

About the direction of connector, I understand your point.
I noted the numbers that are moulded on the connector plastic so I am sure there is no mixing up - I checked several times.

For the dash illumination wire, is this true to Mk1b, too?

I have connected the earth cable, yes.
mrpcpc wrote:Is the 1989 Vitesse a Mk1b ?
if so, you can do a swap of the dash loom straight in with no modifications for a Mka (6dial vitesse dash loom)
The Mk1a &b share the same wiring throughout the car so trust me, it will plug and play. the only difference is the clocks and dash loom.
Trouble is you need to source a Mk1a Vitesse loom which is not the same as Mk1 Sterling loom.
From this page
http://www.rover800.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=90642

MK1a-100001-177121
MK1b-177122-276671
MK1c-276672-297485


Based on the above categorisation, my car(s) is(are?)

827 Si 88' SAXXSZLNDAM177XXX (23/8/88) MK1b
827 Vitesse 90' SAXXSWWNDAM236XXX (8/6/90) MK1b

Sorry, I mixed up the model year - Si is 88 and Vitesse is 90! but they both seems to be MK1b
In theory, the looms should be the same? but in reality, some of the wiring are different... and Si has 6 dial and Vitesse has 4 dial
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:27 pm

I think i may have one of the oil pressure senders as pictured by mrpcpc and i know i have a 6 dial instrument cluster that i think came from an 820 (rev counter set up for 4 cyls) but it it missing the fuel and temp gauges i believe. If it's any help to you then you're welcome to it.
Not sure how soon i'll be able to get round to the garage to check on the oil pressure sender but will let you know when i've checked.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by Charles827si » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:17 pm

Just a side note about wiring. There should be wiring and 3 pin connector for a cig lighter in the rear on Mk1a 827si cars, as I discovered a couple of years back. The connector is the same as the one for the front cig lighter.
Charles 'Yorks'
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"92 827 Coupe (manual)
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2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:18 am

scoobyh123 wrote:I think i may have one of the oil pressure senders as pictured by mrpcpc and i know i have a 6 dial instrument cluster that i think came from an 820 (rev counter set up for 4 cyls) but it it missing the fuel and temp gauges i believe. If it's any help to you then you're welcome to it.
Not sure how soon i'll be able to get round to the garage to check on the oil pressure sender but will let you know when i've checked.
Thank you very much for your offers, that's very kind of you! 8)
If I understood correctly I need those pressure sender if I use 6 dial cluster - the 6 dial has oil pressure warning light as well as pressure gauge and the pressure gauge needs this oil pressure sender - I may be wrong so please correct if needed...
I am swapping to 4 dial so I think I may not require this, I guess.
Again thank you very much for your courtesy, and if I am wrong I would definitely beg for your sender :D
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:37 pm

You're welcome - i thought you were converting to 6 dial from 4 but as you're going to 4 dial from 6 you won't be needing it, not to worry!

Keep up the good work, would be nice if you have it road legal for next years BL Day at Peterborough - what are the chances?
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:57 am

mrpcpc wrote:i thought you was swapping the other way, 4 - 6 dial :shock:
you won't need the oil transducer for the 4 dial but if its an Si front, you should already have one on the rear subframe (bolted up by the steering rack anyway for the 6 dial clocks
You can remove it, and the pipe, along with the adapter from the oil filter housing and then screw the oil pressure switch straight into the oil filter housing. :)
No, please don't worry, my writing was not very clear and confusing (actually I am! :lol: ), plus normally people does 4 dials to 6 dials swap (no offence Richard!)
Its good to know that I don't need that oil transducer, less job to do!
For now I leave it as is and when I manage the other issue I will come back to it.
Thanks for your information, though, it is great support!

I have one question, which Rover manual do you recommend to tackle this issue?
I had a look at ebay and there are too many to choose from, between many repair manuals, CDs, etc.
I would appreciate if you could point me or if you could let me know the exact name of your manual and edition etc suitable for this job.
Thanks again!

I understood that when you swap 4 to 6 dials, the cable colour code matched up well.
For some reason, my 88 Si and 90 Vitesse, both Mk1b, but some wiring colour are different.
I am doing this because I use 90 vitesse as reference and copy the wiring combination to the instrument cluster, to the 4 dials on Si side.
Also, on 88 Si, the coding is painted whereas 90 Vitesse has wires with colour stripes in full length (like contemporary wiring today) if you know what I mean?
Do you think this is because there is loom difference between Si and Vitesse as you wrote above?
Or even in Mk1b there are some variations depending on the 6 dial /4 dial?
scoobyh123 wrote:You're welcome - i thought you were converting to 6 dial from 4 but as you're going to 4 dial from 6 you won't be needing it, not to worry!
Keep up the good work, would be nice if you have it road legal for next years BL Day at Peterborough - what are the chances?
Thanks!!
Oh well, yes, if I can manage that in time it would be great!
All I can say at the moment is I will try my best!


I jacked up the car and tried speedo but, another NG.... :evil:

Until I get proper manual, I tried to find out which connector goes to the light bulb in question.
First I tried the charging lamp but, when I touched both + and - of the bulb socket on the counter with circuit tester, it is already closed (connected) :roll:
Seems like I need to study how charging circuit works.
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