Two Headed 827

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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by Richard Moss » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:35 pm

It's worth bearing in mind that instruments and warning lights are fed with a permanent 12v supply and are switched on by earthing them - in effect, it's back to front compared to how you might expect.
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:22 pm

epic1400cs wrote: Until I get proper manual, I tried to find out which connector goes to the light bulb in question.
First I tried the charging lamp but, when I touched both + and - of the bulb socket on the counter with circuit tester, it is already closed (connected) :roll:
Seems like I need to study how charging circuit works.
Hopefully this will help then :

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The reason the bulb appears to be in circuit is there is a resistor across it to still provide a feed to the field terminal so that in the event of the bulb failing, the field will still get a feed so the alternator will continue to charge - clever little touch i've not seen on many cars! It also means a 1.2W bulb can be used as the charge warning light bulb instead of a 3W as was traditionally used to flow enough current for the field windings.

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That's the resistor on a Mk1 6 dial panel, it reads as 68 ohms (by colour code) and 12 ohms with the multimeter unti the charge warning light is removed. If you're using a very basic circuit tester, chances are it will read either as being a complete circuit.

Could be worth checking the bulb actually works by removing it complete with it's holder and wiring it up to a 12V supply, just to make sure it works or use a multimeter across it to see what results you get.
Cheers,
Dave


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'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:23 pm

Richard Moss wrote:It's worth bearing in mind that instruments and warning lights are fed with a permanent 12v supply and are switched on by earthing them - in effect, it's back to front compared to how you might expect.
Do you mean, fed from positive and going back to negative earth?
scoobyh123 wrote: The reason the bulb appears to be in circuit is there is a resistor across it to still provide a feed to the field terminal so that in the event of the bulb failing, the field will still get a feed so the alternator will continue to charge - clever little touch i've not seen on many cars! It also means a 1.2W bulb can be used as the charge warning light bulb instead of a 3W as was traditionally used to flow enough current for the field windings.

That's the resistor on a Mk1 6 dial panel, it reads as 68 ohms (by colour code) and 12 ohms with the multimeter unti the charge warning light is removed. If you're using a very basic circuit tester, chances are it will read either as being a complete circuit.

Could be worth checking the bulb actually works by removing it complete with it's holder and wiring it up to a 12V supply, just to make sure it works or use a multimeter across it to see what results you get.
Thank you very very much for taking time to scan in the manual!
That is very good explanation!

Today to check the colour of 'L' connector cable, that should going back to the instrument cluster panel, had a closer look.
It turned out that the connector was loose! :oops:
Thank you very much for all your help and apologies for such a silly ending.....

Next one is instrument panel illumination.
To determine if the issue is cluster or wiring, I installed known working one from Vitesse and no illumination either.
Then I suddenly remember that this light is dimmable and the dimmer is on the separate dash.... of course, I didn't connect the loom to the outer dash!
After connecting the multi connector the dash, now the light is working!

Fast indicator.
This is another embarrassment.
I reinstalled the Vitesse 4 dial on Vitesse (means how it was) and the indicator is fast, too - not only Si side but Vitesse side, too.
Then I gradually remember that this is how it was! - I made this car for video shooting and there is no need for indicator so after removing rear indicators, they were flashing fast.
It has been long time since last time I drove it so obviously I forgot all these details! :oops: :oops: Getting old....
Many many apologies.
I still may need to address this one but most probably I can add resistor somewhere?

Last one is the speedo.
Again I installed Vitesse 4 dial (known working one) onto Si and turn the wheel on floor stand but no luck.
Means it is not instrument panel issue, definitely the wiring.
So this is the last problem, I hope!

Again, thank you very much for you guys support so far, it has been great.
It is embarrassing that most of the trouble was me, not the car :roll:
My dad told me when was a kid that I was always wrestling by myself - it is still true and hence the artwork I guess :lol:
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:35 pm

mrpcpc wrote:Do both dashes have the relay tray underneath the steering column side of the dash or is there a CCU Central control unit on the 89 vitesse ?
if both are the same (relay trays) then regardless of paint and stripes on the wires they are indeed of the same era/manual, ie, Mk1a & b. and yes they are different like i said before because one is a saloon (827si) an the other is a fastback Vitesse.
they are two different versions of the same car but have similarities possibly at items like the sunroof connections or the window connections.
The manual you need is the 1988 publication : AKM 6278
IMPORTANT ! you need to ensure that the addendum (VIN231722) is included when puchasing for the automatic temperature control and the later 4 dial clocks.
Alternatively, I do have a PDF file which includes the addendum but its too large to send by email (22megs)
Your Si will be pre VIN231722
your Vitesse will be post VIN231722 (you will need the addendum for these clocks which is not in the standard AKM6278)
OMG, :shock: thank you very much for the bucket load of info, I am in toy shop! :lol:
I am not 100% re the location of relay so I will double check and come back.
It is very interesting that pre and post VIN231722 thing, plus saloon and hatch back - definitely these two reasons made some difference between the two cars.
Thank you for the detailed info re manual - I will find the one asap to finalize the speedo problem.
Many many thank you, I don't know how many time is enough 8)
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:00 pm

mrpcpc wrote:I mentioned before that you need to change the speed sensor (speed tranducer) for the later one for the speedo to work.
It is not a wiring issue, you simply have the wrong transducer.
The bonus is that all of them from 1990-1995 will work with the 4 dial clocks.
I have a spare here if you want to do a swap but you will need to change the connector on the car to fit it.
The transducer is on the top of the gearbox at the rear of the bulkhead and you will see on the Vitesse side that the connector is black (this is the type you now need for both)
Thank you again for your heads up 8)
Now I understand what you mean in the previous post about transducer :idea:
One question - can I chop the old transducer wire connector and fit it onto the newer transducer?
Number of the pin is ok do you think?
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:46 pm

Glad you got the majority of the problems sorted simply - those sort of faults are very often the hardest to find though!

As for the fast indicators and adding a relay you could or you could simply add another 21W bulb where it wouldn't be seen, you can buy bulbholders quite cheaply on Amazon (i just bought 4 for about £1.60 each to do a conversion on my tail lights and they were dual filament holders, think the single filament jobbies are even cheaper) and a 10 pack of 382 bulbs(single filament 21W) for just over £2 so won't cost the earth. I might even have a couple of spare plastic holders floating around somewhere that you could have but not sure where they are likely to be.

Alternatively you could buy the loading resistors that the LED bulb shops sell to prevent CANBUS errors and restore the flash rate.

Another idea is disconnect the indicator function and connect the indicator bulbs to the other end of the car so i could be driven legally..................
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by Richard Moss » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:33 am

epic1400cs wrote:
Richard Moss wrote:It's worth bearing in mind that instruments and warning lights are fed with a permanent 12v supply and are switched on by earthing them - in effect, it's back to front compared to how you might expect.
Do you mean, fed from positive and going back to negative earth?
yes - everything has 12v fed to it all the time and to make a light come on the CCU switches on an earth path. This is the opposite way around from something like a torch where the bulb has a permanent earth and you switch on the positive supply.
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:53 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:Glad you got the majority of the problems sorted simply - those sort of faults are very often the hardest to find though!
As for the fast indicators and adding a relay you could or you could simply add another 21W bulb where it wouldn't be seen, you can buy bulbholders quite cheaply on Amazon (i just bought 4 for about £1.60 each to do a conversion on my tail lights and they were dual filament holders, think the single filament jobbies are even cheaper) and a 10 pack of 382 bulbs(single filament 21W) for just over £2 so won't cost the earth. I might even have a couple of spare plastic holders floating around somewhere that you could have but not sure where they are likely to be.
Alternatively you could buy the loading resistors that the LED bulb shops sell to prevent CANBUS errors and restore the flash rate.
Another idea is disconnect the indicator function and connect the indicator bulbs to the other end of the car so i could be driven legally..................
Although I still have speedo and indicators, I am happy that most of the lights are working - yes, it was very hard to find the faults because it was fault of my brain, not the car's :lol:
Thank you very much for the great ideas for the indicators.
I should look into it with potential MOT and registration in the near future so that I don't have to do the work trice.
Or, for the short term, I can simply add resistor and for the MOT it would be more thorough one.... decisions, decisions,,,
It is great to have options isn't it?
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:55 pm

Richard Moss wrote: yes - everything has 12v fed to it all the time and to make a light come on the CCU switches on an earth path. This is the opposite way around from something like a torch where the bulb has a permanent earth and you switch on the positive supply.
:idea: ah! I know clearly what you mean now! Thank you!!
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:19 pm

mrpcpc wrote: You can chop the wires if you really must but the wire on the transducer is very tough.
It is not like any other cable on the car and you could end up cutting into the cores by accident.
Your best best is to try and source the male connector from one at the breakers as this way you can also swap if it becomes faulty.
I chopped one once and fitted a black connector to the transducer using solder and heat shrink but I would not do it again.as i needed to use a stanley nife and had to be very very careful not to keep damaging the cable core insulation.

As for faulty transducers, sometimes damp can get into them so they don't work. This is temporary in most cases as when they dry out they come back to life. So don't go back to the Rover dealer just yet :lol: :lol: :lol: ordering a new one.
If you do have this problem don't go bashing the dashboard :lol:

As for the indicators...
I would run two twin cables both sides from the front indicator to the rear indicator :? or from the rear indicator to the front indicator :? :? :? then fit green relays in line so that the indicator will then work from which ever end you operate it from. 4 green relays in total connected to the incoming wire of the other circuit but powered by the indicator circuit you want to use. (you with me :? :lol: :? :wink: :roll: :( :? )
The green relays are N/C (Normally Closed) so when powered up can disconnect the wire going back to the other circuit and at the same time illuminating the lamp.
Alternatively you could find the original wires going to the rear indicators ? and not use relays but i'm not sure how you would fit lamps unless you used LED's.
The problem with LED's is they would still be quick flashing so would need the resistor or lamp in series.
right hand indicator : green/white (GW)
left hand indicator : green/red (GW)

The brake lights and rear lights I would do with a few LED's as they push nicely into a 5mm drill hole which could be drilled into the headlamp reflector.
You have the issue of locating the original wires going to the back of the car for this especially if you want your VCM to work
The VCM will not pick up faulty LED's so you will need to use brighter lamps (10W) for the tail lights.
Your Si front end does not have a trip/VCM so LED's will do.

Rear lights: red/orange (RO)
Brakes : green/purple (GP)
Fogs: blue/yellow (UO)

That said, you have the Mk1 headlamps which are sealed as opposed to the Mk2 which are clipped, so that job is a little difficult unless you now want to change your headlamps
Its your head ache on this one but I thought I would give you my thoughts with a bit of info. :)
Gee, thank you so much again for so many useful info and great ideas!

For transducer, ok, I know your point very well now.
I will find a parts car and get the transducer plus connector from the chassis together.
One question, it has to be the one from 827 manual transmission with Honda V6, 90-95, correct?
I now fully understood that I know nothing so it is better to check just in case ! :lol:
Great tips on the damp transducer, too - I make sure I will not punch the dash if it doesn't work, thank you!

For the indicator plus brake lamp, I really appreciate your ideas as well as all the details.
It is great that you can come up with such a detailed set up :shock:
I think I would use resistor for this occasion as short term solution and the green relay plus brake light as on going one.
This is mainly because after this months, time for this project is getting very tight due to my work, but not due to laziness, I swear!
I am glad that now I see some very concrete solution. :D
Many thanks for your help!!! :D
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by scoobyh123 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:27 pm

Something i've found that works very well with damp speedo transducers is to remove them from the car and put them in a pre-heated oven for 30-45 mins. Now before you go and stick the oven on at Gas Mark 8, i would like to point out that gas is a very moist fuel and as such will be warming the sensor up with warm, moist air. This won't be much help as when it cools, you'll be back to square one.

As such it is necessary to use an electric oven with a reliable thermostat. Make sure it is set to about 70C, any less and it won't do the job, any more and you're into the likelihood of melting solder joints and possibly warping the plastic. That said, unless i'm mistaken the sensors are made from glass-filled nylon or Delrin, both of which have a melting point in excess of 200C.

I've used this method several times on my Sterling and it has worked every time.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:43 pm

scoobyh123, thanks for the great idea.
We have electric oven so I would try it before installing it.
Oven are quite handy for drying painted parts (only when my family is away) but didn't think about drying damp parts!

mrpcpc, thank you for the confirmation.
I will then look for the parts car asap!
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:26 pm

You're welcome - i got the idea from a place where i worked where they would dry plastics compound prior to using it in injection moulding machines. It was also great for warming pies up when the boss wasn't looking! :wink:
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by epic1400cs » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:50 am

mrpcpc wrote:You can chop the wires if you really must but the wire on the transducer is very tough.
It is not like any other cable on the car and you could end up cutting into the cores by accident.
Your best best is to try and source the male connector from one at the breakers as this way you can also swap if it becomes faulty.
I chopped one once and fitted a black connector to the transducer using solder and heat shrink but I would not do it again.as i needed to use a stanley nife and had to be very very careful not to keep damaging the cable core insulation.
I have been searching for the transducer with male connector in breakers (local and national search) and I notice that 800 are not that many around anymore.
As plan B I am wondering, can I take apart the female connector by pulling out the wires induvidually with the metal tips attached and emigrate to other ones?
Or is this connector not the easy one like he ones from instrument clusters?

Plan C would be unfortunately the cutting - I have electricians cable stripper which you can strip only the outer plastic - would it work or careful cutting with Stanley knife is better option still?
My brain is rotting away but I have fairly steady hand by the way....

It sounds like school boy question but wanted to ask your opionon with experience before messing it up :wink:
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Re: Two Headed 827

Post by vito » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:10 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:You're welcome - i got the idea from a place where i worked where they would dry plastics compound prior to using it in injection moulding machines. It was also great for warming pies up when the boss wasn't looking! :wink:
He he, Guy who works on my motorbikes uses his kitchen oven to 'bake' his freshly coated black engine parts, I part paid a bill for some work on my LC250 with my old IKEA oven we were chucking last Christmas for his garden workshop, his wife was MOST grateful.............. though not in the biblical sense I hurriedly add :shock:
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