Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Congrats for the Volvos MOT pass Dave. Just wondered if you noticed any differences after replacing the crank sensor?
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Thanks Charles and yes, it started easier!
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
A small job done and well worth it.
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Definitely! It won't start at all without the CPS working on it, the fuel pumps won't run either! Quite a crucial animal on the Volvo!
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
I've had recent battery problems on the Sterling, caused by a silver-calcium battery.
They're pretty much all you can get these days, unless you want to pay through the nose for the older, plain lead-acid batteries.
Of course, the silver-calium batteries are still lead-acid but the lead-antimony on one set of plates has been changed to silver-calcium to prevent self-discharge, give deeper discharge/recharge cycles and life but the big problem with them is they need a higher charging voltage than lead-acid batteries.
This is something the guy in the shop/store/over the phone won't tell you. He'll give all the corporate BS about calcium batteries being better this way, that way and every which way but loose and in some respects they are.
However, they are absolutely no use at all if our cars won't charge them!
It's not commonly known but calcium batteries need about 14.8v to start charging, ideally around 14.9-15.0v to charge properly. Once they've started charging they're not so fussy but it's getting them charging in the first place.
I don't have a "smart" alternator on mine, most of those give about 14.7v output which will be just over 15.0v when the regulator is cold.
As such, i started investigating the charging circuitry on mine. In common with most Hondas/Honda-derived Rovers, it's a Nippon-Denso alternator and is rated 70A at 14.0v - plenty of current but the voltage is just too low for a calcium battery.
Luckily on the 827 (and very early 825s) the alternator is battery sensed. The difference between battery sensed and machine sensed is that a battery sensed alternator uses a feed from the battery, usually through the ignition switch and a fuse to detect the battery voltage and charge accordingly.
Using the previously mentioned 14.7v that most "intelligent/smart" alternators seem to put out as a target, how can i achieve that?
The humble diode comes to mind - theoretically it takes 0.7v to get a diode to conduct so that 0.7v can be used to subtract from the battery voltage that feeds the sense wire on the alternator.
This evening i've made a small loom from the control wiring multiplug that came from another Denso alternator with a similar pin-out and 4 small diodes in parallel. This gives a forward voltage of about 0.5-0.6v on the current my multimeter supplies for testing, this should go up a bit when it's feeding the alternator sense circuitry.
If it works how i think it should work, it should add about 0.6-0.7v to the alternator output. When it's cold, the output voltage from the alternator is 14.4v, when it's warm, it is 14.0v so should give me 15.0-15.1v when cold and 14.7v ish when warm
The reason i used 4 small diodes is they are all i have at the moment and they are only 1A versions. I've ordered a couple of 10A versions via fleabay which should be with me in a few days. Putting them in parallel has obviously confused my multimeter into showing a reduced voltage because it's seeing parallel resistances which are always lower. However i'm fairly confident that once it's on the car, they'll drop the required 0.6-0.7v to boost the charging voltage.
At present the diodes are somewhat experimental, to prove the point more than anything, the bigger diodes i've ordered will be used for the long term as being bigger, they should be more reliable in the long term.
The spare plug with wires prepared etc
Terminals and heatshrink fitted
Diodes ready for terminals
Terminals and heatshrink fitted followed by a quick check :
Finally, the assmbled test-loom ready for fitting and testing :
The next day i fitted the test-loom. Before i started, i checked the battery voltage - 8.96v so well down on what it should be! Fitted the loom in, added the jump pack and the battery voltage came up to about 12.6v and started the car.
Expecting one of two things to happen, either it remained at 12v ish or it would come up to a higher than normal voltage. It was the second option!
The multimeter now read 14.8v, as did the voltmeter on the jump pack and also the voltmeter in the twin USB socket in the centre console. I left it running for about 10 minutes or so to warm up a bit and also get some charge back into the battery and the jump pack. By then it had dropped to about 13.8 - 14.0v but bringing the revs up a bit soon had it up to around 14.7 - 14.9v with an occasional blip up to 15.1v, showing my theory/supposition was exactly right.
Took it for a lap of the base/village which is about 12 miles to try and put some charge in the battery. No joy!
As such i got my "dumb" charger out and put it on charge overnight.
Bad news on the battery. Took it off charge (was showing 14.9-15.0V) and the voltage started dropping. It sort of settled about 12.6V (so 2.3V below what it had charged to) so i hit the alarm button on the fob. Lights didn't flash and the door unlocked - very slowly! Note i said "door" - the rest of the central locking didn't bother!
Putting the key in the ignition and turning to position 1 to bring up the voltmeter on the USB sockets showed 9.6V - moving to position 2 (ignition) all lights went out including the USB voltmeter.
Conclusion? Battery is TARFU so i need a new battery. :(:(
Looks like i'll have to bite the bullet and buy one, at least now i've solved the problem of charging a silver-calcium battery i shouldn't have the same problem in a few months! Reckon the cold snap we're currently having put the final nail in the batterys coffin.
Following on from this, the new diodes arrived and i've decided that instead of leaving the test-loom permanently installed, i'll cut the sense wire in the alternator loom and fit an Econoseal 2-pole socket. Then wire two plugs for it, one with a simple wire link (14.0V output) and the other with the diode in it (14.7V) so i can select which battery charging voltage i need.
New diode and wire link prepared - note the seals on the wire!
Wire link fitted into plug with seals!
Terminals fitted to new diode - note the lack of seals!
You can see why the seals were left off! The solution :
Thanks to the weather and lack of a new battery for a week or three, i won't be doing much for a while but it's all there in preparation.
They're pretty much all you can get these days, unless you want to pay through the nose for the older, plain lead-acid batteries.
Of course, the silver-calium batteries are still lead-acid but the lead-antimony on one set of plates has been changed to silver-calcium to prevent self-discharge, give deeper discharge/recharge cycles and life but the big problem with them is they need a higher charging voltage than lead-acid batteries.
This is something the guy in the shop/store/over the phone won't tell you. He'll give all the corporate BS about calcium batteries being better this way, that way and every which way but loose and in some respects they are.
However, they are absolutely no use at all if our cars won't charge them!
It's not commonly known but calcium batteries need about 14.8v to start charging, ideally around 14.9-15.0v to charge properly. Once they've started charging they're not so fussy but it's getting them charging in the first place.
I don't have a "smart" alternator on mine, most of those give about 14.7v output which will be just over 15.0v when the regulator is cold.
As such, i started investigating the charging circuitry on mine. In common with most Hondas/Honda-derived Rovers, it's a Nippon-Denso alternator and is rated 70A at 14.0v - plenty of current but the voltage is just too low for a calcium battery.
Luckily on the 827 (and very early 825s) the alternator is battery sensed. The difference between battery sensed and machine sensed is that a battery sensed alternator uses a feed from the battery, usually through the ignition switch and a fuse to detect the battery voltage and charge accordingly.
Using the previously mentioned 14.7v that most "intelligent/smart" alternators seem to put out as a target, how can i achieve that?
The humble diode comes to mind - theoretically it takes 0.7v to get a diode to conduct so that 0.7v can be used to subtract from the battery voltage that feeds the sense wire on the alternator.
This evening i've made a small loom from the control wiring multiplug that came from another Denso alternator with a similar pin-out and 4 small diodes in parallel. This gives a forward voltage of about 0.5-0.6v on the current my multimeter supplies for testing, this should go up a bit when it's feeding the alternator sense circuitry.
If it works how i think it should work, it should add about 0.6-0.7v to the alternator output. When it's cold, the output voltage from the alternator is 14.4v, when it's warm, it is 14.0v so should give me 15.0-15.1v when cold and 14.7v ish when warm
The reason i used 4 small diodes is they are all i have at the moment and they are only 1A versions. I've ordered a couple of 10A versions via fleabay which should be with me in a few days. Putting them in parallel has obviously confused my multimeter into showing a reduced voltage because it's seeing parallel resistances which are always lower. However i'm fairly confident that once it's on the car, they'll drop the required 0.6-0.7v to boost the charging voltage.
At present the diodes are somewhat experimental, to prove the point more than anything, the bigger diodes i've ordered will be used for the long term as being bigger, they should be more reliable in the long term.
The spare plug with wires prepared etc
Terminals and heatshrink fitted
Diodes ready for terminals
Terminals and heatshrink fitted followed by a quick check :
Finally, the assmbled test-loom ready for fitting and testing :
The next day i fitted the test-loom. Before i started, i checked the battery voltage - 8.96v so well down on what it should be! Fitted the loom in, added the jump pack and the battery voltage came up to about 12.6v and started the car.
Expecting one of two things to happen, either it remained at 12v ish or it would come up to a higher than normal voltage. It was the second option!
The multimeter now read 14.8v, as did the voltmeter on the jump pack and also the voltmeter in the twin USB socket in the centre console. I left it running for about 10 minutes or so to warm up a bit and also get some charge back into the battery and the jump pack. By then it had dropped to about 13.8 - 14.0v but bringing the revs up a bit soon had it up to around 14.7 - 14.9v with an occasional blip up to 15.1v, showing my theory/supposition was exactly right.
Took it for a lap of the base/village which is about 12 miles to try and put some charge in the battery. No joy!
As such i got my "dumb" charger out and put it on charge overnight.
Bad news on the battery. Took it off charge (was showing 14.9-15.0V) and the voltage started dropping. It sort of settled about 12.6V (so 2.3V below what it had charged to) so i hit the alarm button on the fob. Lights didn't flash and the door unlocked - very slowly! Note i said "door" - the rest of the central locking didn't bother!
Putting the key in the ignition and turning to position 1 to bring up the voltmeter on the USB sockets showed 9.6V - moving to position 2 (ignition) all lights went out including the USB voltmeter.
Conclusion? Battery is TARFU so i need a new battery. :(:(
Looks like i'll have to bite the bullet and buy one, at least now i've solved the problem of charging a silver-calcium battery i shouldn't have the same problem in a few months! Reckon the cold snap we're currently having put the final nail in the batterys coffin.
Following on from this, the new diodes arrived and i've decided that instead of leaving the test-loom permanently installed, i'll cut the sense wire in the alternator loom and fit an Econoseal 2-pole socket. Then wire two plugs for it, one with a simple wire link (14.0V output) and the other with the diode in it (14.7V) so i can select which battery charging voltage i need.
New diode and wire link prepared - note the seals on the wire!
Wire link fitted into plug with seals!
Terminals fitted to new diode - note the lack of seals!
You can see why the seals were left off! The solution :
Thanks to the weather and lack of a new battery for a week or three, i won't be doing much for a while but it's all there in preparation.
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
I'm not even sure what type of battery I have fitted on the 827 Coupe now. I used to use Bosch every time but I've no idea if these were calcium type.
The local garage fitted me one, where I had an emergency situation. It was guarantied for 3 years....it lasted 6 months and was dead by the January beast of the east, but I got a free replacement which so far I've had no issues with.
The original Mk1 battery on the Atlantic blue 827si lasted 16 years, right up until nearly 2004, just before the car was put on a sorn due to the heavy list of MOT failures which I sorted out a few years later, having pleaded with my parents to save the car.
I fitted a Bosch battery again, but that didn't last that long. (5 years as expected)
The local garage fitted me one, where I had an emergency situation. It was guarantied for 3 years....it lasted 6 months and was dead by the January beast of the east, but I got a free replacement which so far I've had no issues with.
The original Mk1 battery on the Atlantic blue 827si lasted 16 years, right up until nearly 2004, just before the car was put on a sorn due to the heavy list of MOT failures which I sorted out a few years later, having pleaded with my parents to save the car.
I fitted a Bosch battery again, but that didn't last that long. (5 years as expected)
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
I don't think anything lasts as it used to Charles. Worth checking to see what battery you have fitted now as winter is coming and with it, the chance that batteries that aren't quite there at all times will be killed by frost, ice etc.
It's a very simple mod on the 827s to increase the alternator output voltage - not so easy on 2.0 models or diesels, i think the 825 KV6 also uses a Denso alternator so potentially that could be an easy mod as well. Don't forget, when our Rovers were made, or at least designed, calcium batteries were only just appearing and while some models have a "smart" alternator, a lot don't/won't have.
It's a very simple mod on the 827s to increase the alternator output voltage - not so easy on 2.0 models or diesels, i think the 825 KV6 also uses a Denso alternator so potentially that could be an easy mod as well. Don't forget, when our Rovers were made, or at least designed, calcium batteries were only just appearing and while some models have a "smart" alternator, a lot don't/won't have.
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Points taken Dave, I'll check the battery, best time to do so now.scoobyh123 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:26 pmI don't think anything lasts as it used to Charles. Worth checking to see what battery you have fitted now as winter is coming and with it, the chance that batteries that aren't quite there at all times will be killed by frost, ice etc.
It's a very simple mod on the 827s to increase the alternator output voltage - not so easy on 2.0 models or diesels, i think the 825 KV6 also uses a Denso alternator so potentially that could be an easy mod as well. Don't forget, when our Rovers were made, or at least designed, calcium batteries were only just appearing and while some models have a "smart" alternator, a lot don't/won't have.
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Definitely a good idea Charles!
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Didn't realise lead acid batteries were disappearing.
My Mondeo definitely has a calcium battery.
Not sure on the Jeep, I know it's new but no idea what it is. I should probably investigate.
My Mondeo definitely has a calcium battery.
Not sure on the Jeep, I know it's new but no idea what it is. I should probably investigate.
Chris
19 Vauxhall Astra 1.6T SRi Nav Estate
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19 Vauxhall Astra 1.6T SRi Nav Estate
08 Vauxhall Astra 2.0T Design Twintop
02 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7 V8 HO
Previously owned 57 800s 2000-2012
Relapse of 1 in 2021 Now Sold
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Impressive fiddling there Dave, great skills!
Henrik
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Sadly they are Chris. They're hard to find on fleabay (and everywhere else) and if you do find them, there is a premium attached :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HB096-Lead-A ... 2434766703
LEAD-ACID BATTERY ^^^^^
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-TYPE-096 ... 1950279096
SILVER-CALCIUM BATTERY ^^^^^
I think the alternator on the Jeep is a Nippon Denso and i know when i was researching i found several refernces to boosting the alternator voltage on a Jeep. Should be a ratings plate on the alternator giving output voltage and current, along the lines of 14V 80A - if it's suitable for a calcium battery, it should say 14.7V 80A or similar.
Worth checking sooner rathar than later though!
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Thanks Henrik - it's yet to have a full test with a new battery but that will come! At least on the 827 it's a fairly easy mod to increase the alternator output voltage, not so easy on the 2.0 models though! That said, some had smart alterantors anyway so won't be needed but it's pot luck from what i've seen of the 2.0 models.
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Excellent write up there Dave.
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Re: Scoobys Dogmobile - Take 2!
Thanks Nick!
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