Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by vito » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:18 pm

Sounds good Dave, and all good if you've got an LPG station nearby.
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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:23 pm

Thanks Gaz - nearest is about 12 miles away but then again, so are most shops. There's a couple of small towns nearer with a few basic shops and petrol stations but i usually end up traveling further for various things so it makes sense.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by Alucard7002 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:35 pm

Alot of those mods sound somewhat familiar Dave! ;-)

Good luck with it and your other vehicles. as always I'm only "down the road" from you so a weekend of spannering or electrical-ing is doable.

I'm guessing the LPG system had the vapouriser in series with the heater core rather than parallel?
Dušan - head lunatic @ Four Paw Racing

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:24 pm

Can't think why Dusan! :wink: :lol:

Thanks, i may well take you up on that offer in the near future! Thinking of fitting the LPG onto the coupé before putting it in for it's next MoT so it can be tested on gas - save having to refit the cat! :wink: :D

You're along the right lines but not quite right. The monkey that installed the LPG originally on the Jeep somehow managed to swap the flow and return hoses from the heater so the flow was going into the bottom of the matrix. This meant it was constantly fighting air locks to go up to the matrix outlet (a problem i had on my last 740 - freezing cold heater, not how Volvo intended!) so there was a permanent air lock in the heater. Just for fun, because he swapped the flow and return lines, it made the (correct) flow line too short to go round the end of the head at a sensible level so he did this instead :

Image

That meant an already airlocked hose was already above the level of any other coolant in the system! As the vap was plumbed in parallel (full flow heater system with a blend flap, unlike the 800s that have the heater valve) that was also getting air locked and even managed to freeze the vap on idle :

Image

The temp gauge was reading about 40-50C at that point! Swapping the flow and return hoses from the heater and replumbing the vap in series with the flow, in through the top, out through the bottom of the vap to the heater then through a repaired return hose to the water pump got it going as it should. The heater now chucks out warm/hot air within about 1/2 mile and just gets hotter until it's up to temperature although the temperature gauge is still a little vague but getting better. The sensor for it is on the back end of the head, nearest to the heater so i suspect there are some minor air locks still near it that are clearing slowly.

Then with the laptop i bought off fleabay that has a working RS-232 port, i was able to interrogate the Leo ECU and correct a few settings. For a start i changed it from the default setting of "Dual Coils" to 6-cylinder which immediately corrected the rpm setting from 2400rpm to 7-800rpm which is what the engine was doing at the time. It explains why it would change over to gas at random, sometimes even while cranking!
Then i did the extra settings after getting the idle right, things like the stepper motor opening under full load/throttle so it no longer reverts to petrol when i hoof it, the fuel cut off parameters etc.

According to a couple of guys on the LPG forum i haven't set things up correctly and in fairness there is some weight in their arguments. However when i explained the other factors involved (such as dubious history of the vap) they did agree i had probably done the right thing. :wink:

For now it's running very sweetly on LPG and going well on it, not sure how the economy has been effected by my tweaks such as the fuel cut-off on overrun but time will tell.

With this extra knowledge/experience i've gained on setting up the LPG, i'm hoping the coupés conversion will be a doddle by comparison! :wink: :D Things aren't always that easy though so time will tell on that one! :shock: :lol: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by Alucard7002 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:51 pm

Don't got there with the LPG folks!

Rather large quantity of them are "My way or highway" types who only have the one was of doing it right - theirs!

According the them I'll melt the valve seats or blow the intake to bits ( actual intake not just a popped airbox)

So far it has same compression as when purchased (next to none, exhaust valves must be rattling around some) and the intake is fine.

Heck I can bounce it off the rev limiter on gas in neutral for a good 20 seconds... it doesn't care, according to some of the folks on that forum the result of that would have been a rod through the block...

[/rant]

Problem solved by ignoring them and leaving the forum in question after deleting my posts!

Well done fixing the Jeep!

LPG systems are a pain and any installed by a grumpy orangutan wielding a hammer (sorry, Budget LPG installer) usually need removing entirely, fixing them, fixing the car, then refitting properly.
Dušan - head lunatic @ Four Paw Racing

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:27 am

You're spot on about some LPG installers - many of them preach "hellfire and brimstone" for doing a DIY install yet the one on the Jeep was meant to be certificated and installed by a professional - yeah, right!

Are you referring to lpgforum.co.uk by any chance? I had a bit of a strange reception on there as well, basically discouraged from doing anything, told the SGi system i'd bought was only fit for the bin and so on. When i queried these things no straight answer was given so i had a bit of a rant.

That provoked a few reactions, one of which was positive from a genuine enthusiast so i learnt a few things, mainly about the system i had bought - lack of support from the manufacturer even to dealers, no longer sold except in its native Germany, no software available etc.
As such i'll raid that system for the bits i can use, if i can find either a bootleg copy of the software and leads i may convert the Jeep to SGi in the fullness of time or perhaps pick up something like a Stag 300-6 to use with the parts to convert the Sterling.

Meanwhile the coupe will get a single point mixer running on a Leo 175 - hopefully should get it done in a weekend some time soon.

Thanks for the well done - i can't believe so many blatant errors were in the original install! Not just the cooling system but many others, all now fixed or improved to be safe. The grumpy, hammer-wielding orangutan most definitely had their paws on it!

Meanwhile i need to change the front bumper and bonnet, possibly the front wing as well for the MoT and then see if i feel like fitting the LPG before putting it in for test.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by Alucard7002 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:10 am

Yup, that be the forum in question - I gave up and followed Google and manufacturer instructions ;-)

As for questionable installs, this is the XJ40 TheOldMan bought as a donor for his 420. It had a certified Prins system installed.

The AJ16 of this vintage in this car is a multipoint non sequential injection. Full group injection, barely better than single point IMHO.

The installer needed only tap into one injector line for a signal and interrupt two of the earths for the injectors (two banks of 3 injector drives on the Jag ECU)

He tapped into every single one using wire that was only 20% the gauge of the original... this meant on petrol the injectors were 'lazy' as the current and voltage drop across this atrocious install meant it never ran right.

The vapouriser coolant lines were resting on the throttle cable causing all sorts of odd behaviour as I'm sure you can imagine.

Image

Fun times. I ended up removing the entire system, fixing the Jag loom, resetting all of the things I could reset. Then it worked on petrol properly!

I never got around to refitting the system as it is such an antiquated injection setup that I suggested to TheOldMan to look at the new liquid phase standalone LPG systems that are available. Much better bits of kit.

Good luck on the MOT!
Dušan - head lunatic @ Four Paw Racing

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:01 pm

That installer wants shooting! I also heard recently of an install on a Honda CRV auto where the installer had spliced the vap coolant feed into the ATF cooler pipes of all things!
The gearbox threw a wobbly and showed up a pressure fault (hardly surprising really!) but it could have been a lot worse!

As for the full group injection system, i'm amazed any installers bother with it. It's along the lines of the old Bosch K-Jetronic petrol injection which although more efficient than a carb set up, isn't that great when compared to sequential EFi and i think it's safe to assume that the same would hold true for LPG systems.In fact i'm sure it would as the LPG would follow the "master" ECU which is the cars original sequential petrol injection system.
I have heard liquid phase LPG can be a pain because you need a pump to generate the injection pressure and also some systems work with a diverter valve arrangement so the same fuel rail is used and the same injectors which can be problematic. For the time being until a few more liquid phase LPG systems are around and the bugs have been ironed out, i think the most i'll be going to is a sequential gas system but for now i'll stick with the single point mixer on the coupé.

I'll let you know when it goes for MoT, for now (as i want to get it back on the road ASAP) i might just refit the cat after it's had the dishwasher tablet treatment and chuck it in and see. It shouldn't fail on much if anything as it's had a fair bit of work since the last one and not done many miles either.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by xpuffin » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:13 pm

That's a great read Dave. :)
10 Rover 800's now and counting.
2x Mk1 827 Vitesse Fastbacks
3x 825 Coupe
Mk1 827 Sterling Saloon
825 Sterling Saloon
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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by Alucard7002 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:24 pm

The AJ16 in the Jag is factory full group injection Dave! The LPG ECU was actually far more advanced than the Jag ECU.

Liquid phase is in its infancy right now. The best option at the moment is like I said a standalone ECU with new injector rails & injectors. Remove all the old petrol system.

I had been thinking about turboing the 820 on liquid phase LPG however cost/benefit ratio and insurance made it it uneconomic. I'll buy that XK one day ;-)

RE: the cat in your 827, just make sure you give it a goodly hoon to get it nice and hot and it should fly through emissions :-)
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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by traineefarmer » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:43 pm

Sorry for the thread diversion, but seeing dave and dusan have mentioned sequential vs. full group injection, does anyone know why rover abandoned sequential injection for the turbo engines at the time of the wasted spark "upgrade"?

Cost seems the obvious answer, but does anyone know more?
Tom.

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:47 pm

xpuffin wrote:That's a great read Dave. :)

Thanks Jez - i'm sure there will be much more to come although i'm hoping i've found all the bodges and fixed them by now! :wink: :D :lol:
Alucard7002 wrote:The AJ16 in the Jag is factory full group injection Dave! The LPG ECU was actually far more advanced than the Jag ECU.

Liquid phase is in its infancy right now. The best option at the moment is like I said a standalone ECU with new injector rails & injectors. Remove all the old petrol system.

I had been thinking about turboing the 820 on liquid phase LPG however cost/benefit ratio and insurance made it it uneconomic. I'll buy that XK one day ;-)

RE: the cat in your 827, just make sure you give it a goodly hoon to get it nice and hot and it should fly through emissions :-)
That's interesting about the AJ6 engine Dusan - i was always under the impression that it was sequential. I did wonder if you meant a complete stand alone liquid injection system without any petrol option but they are pretty rare at the moment too.

What about doing some head/manifold work on the 820 to boost your power and converting it to liquid phase? Wouldn't have thought that would effect the insurance too much, especially if the head/manifold work was not entirely obvious to the average eye? :wink: :wink: 8)

In theory you're right but it still needs the dishwasher tablet treatment first - you can see the lumps of Gun-Gum when you look through it! Besides, it's had a proper hooning every time i've taken it for test so far and still struggled.
Think i'd best extract my digit and gas it quick then take it for test! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:52 pm

traineefarmer wrote:Sorry for the thread diversion, but seeing dave and dusan have mentioned sequential vs. full group injection, does anyone know why rover abandoned sequential injection for the turbo engines at the time of the wasted spark "upgrade"?

Cost seems the obvious answer, but does anyone know more?

I'd hazard a guess they used the old Montego Turbo ECU with a few tweaks which would have saved money. Also with forced induction, here is the possibility one cylinder could run leaner with sequential, possibly only for a few cycles but perhaps enough to do some damage. Just a guess of course.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by traineefarmer » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:07 pm

Only the turbo Ts were sequential, I'm pretty sure the NA ones were full group.
Tom.

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Re: Scoobys new 827 Sterling coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:29 pm

You're right Tom, the n/asp T was full group! What a surprise and wasted opportunity! I wonder if the MPi M series was sequential? Could explain why it pushed out more power. :?:
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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