Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

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Charles827si
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:54 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:47 am
Sorry for the threadjack Charles - hopefully you're enjoying this slight diversion though! :wink: :D
It's quite alright... this has made for some interesting reading. I agree about the 800's suspension. I remember being younger driven in the Mk1, and to me the ride was choppy at speed like you say. On a less than smooth road the ride felt poor (no exaggeration there) but get it on a very smooth stretch of road and the ride was almost sublime, like quite a different vehicle.
It certainly would have been nice if Rover was given more free affairs to work with the suspension. I was watching an old video on the SD1 and alot of early computer aided design development went into this. It's just a pity the SD1s weren't built as well as BL professed.
Just a few years before the all new Mercedes SL was launched (1974 maybe) and I watched a video by an amateur mechanic and enthusiast who was talking about how the SL was nearly the price of two Ferraris and how much of a game changer the car was. Lavish use of chrome, tank like build quality (thick steel), ribbed body work, fantastic brakes. (though just missed out on ABS). The SL of that era was intended to have ABS but it was not quite perfected. And obviously with all the old Mercedes of that era went through probably millions of testing miles (more so than the Rover SD1).

I think the irony today, is that BMW are using double wishbone front suspension on the 5 series (I think or 4 series?) and back in the late 80's, it was unquestionable to use anything other than proven Macpherson coils and dampers on a large executive car. BMW would have laughed at the very idea of double wishbone suspension on a 5 series sized car. Though I'm sure either wishbones or standard coils are cheaper to put together than the complicated/costly multi-link affair on the Z1/3 series/Rover 75, etc.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:07 pm

Some interesting comments there Charles! I'm glad you picked up on the one bit i didn't mention - timescale. As you say, back then the McPherson strut was the "only" front suspension for any luxury car and double-wishbones were more for the "sporty" machine where ride quality wasn't considered part of the overall package.

I know the Lexus LS series has double wishbones and a strange sort of multilink affair and that is also a magic carpet ride by comparison.
My first Mk1 800 was an 820i (Si?) on a D plate, 1986 one of the first, that rode nicely until it was in town and/or on bumpy roads when the ride became harsh and choppy with a lot of body roll.
The next one was an F/88 827 Sterling and the improvement in ride quality was amazing - still a lot of body roll but much less choppy, harsh and twitchy round town - still not great though.
Next one is the Sterling i have now. When i got it the suspension was standard 1993 Sterling spec with thin anti roll bars. I've since upgraded to the 26/21mm front/rear bars and the front springs and shocks are from a 1998 Sterling 825, so are the rear springs and shocks.
Apart from the Vitesse, the shocks were pretty much standard across the range from start to finish, aside from a different top mounting on the Mk1 rears. The springs did change though and the springs on it now give a vastly improved ride, roadholding and handling compared to the originals aided and abetted by the uprated ARBs - it's about the best riding 800 i know of, not quite magic carpet (maybe magic carpet with a bit of turbulence! :P :lol: ) but probably as close as i'll get without major modifications.

I'm surprised the Merc SL didn't get ABS as standard even back in 1974. The Jensen FF Interceptor had it back in 1967 (think it was 67) albeit not a completely electronic one and i'm sure there were other cars around back then with electronic ABS although it was in its infancy back then in many respects.

This WIkipedia article makes for some very interesting reading including the mention of a 4WD Triumph 2500!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

There's very few new ideas in the automotive industry, i think it was Lancia that made the first 16v cylinder head over 100 years ago but like most things, it proved too costly to put into production at the time.
I'd like to see more research into anti-gravity engines, this would give amazing improvements in ride quality, fuel economy and so on and would need much smaller engines for Warp Factor 9 to be easily achieved. The technology exists, if it was made affordable and usable at automotive level, we wouldn't need electric cars! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:27 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:07 pm
Some interesting comments there Charles! I'm glad you picked up on the one bit i didn't mention - timescale. As you say, back then the McPherson strut was the "only" front suspension for any luxury car and double-wishbones were more for the "sporty" machine where ride quality wasn't considered part of the overall package.

I know the Lexus LS series has double wishbones and a strange sort of multilink affair and that is also a magic carpet ride by comparison.
My first Mk1 800 was an 820i (Si?) on a D plate, 1986 one of the first, that rode nicely until it was in town and/or on bumpy roads when the ride became harsh and choppy with a lot of body roll.
The next one was an F/88 827 Sterling and the improvement in ride quality was amazing - still a lot of body roll but much less choppy, harsh and twitchy round town - still not great though.
Next one is the Sterling i have now. When i got it the suspension was standard 1993 Sterling spec with thin anti roll bars. I've since upgraded to the 26/21mm front/rear bars and the front springs and shocks are from a 1998 Sterling 825, so are the rear springs and shocks.
Apart from the Vitesse, the shocks were pretty much standard across the range from start to finish, aside from a different top mounting on the Mk1 rears. The springs did change though and the springs on it now give a vastly improved ride, roadholding and handling compared to the originals aided and abetted by the uprated ARBs - it's about the best riding 800 i know of, not quite magic carpet (maybe magic carpet with a bit of turbulence! :P :lol: ) but probably as close as i'll get without major modifications.

I'm surprised the Merc SL didn't get ABS as standard even back in 1974. The Jensen FF Interceptor had it back in 1967 (think it was 67) albeit not a completely electronic one and i'm sure there were other cars around back then with electronic ABS although it was in its infancy back then in many respects.

This WIkipedia article makes for some very interesting reading including the mention of a 4WD Triumph 2500!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

There's very few new ideas in the automotive industry, i think it was Lancia that made the first 16v cylinder head over 100 years ago but like most things, it proved too costly to put into production at the time.
I'd like to see more research into anti-gravity engines, this would give amazing improvements in ride quality, fuel economy and so on and would need much smaller engines for Warp Factor 9 to be easily achieved. The technology exists, if it was made affordable and usable at automotive level, we wouldn't need electric cars! :wink: :D
Lexus certainly proved they could match and even beat the European luxury marques at their own game. Lexus suspension setups were ahead of Acura when it came to ride and handling. But also Lexus could design and build a fantastic V8 that could be as refined as BMW's V12 and much more advanced than whatever Jaguar were offering in the late 80's early 90's.
With regards to the Merc SL of the 70's I read a story of how Colin Chapman (Lotus boss) was so impressed with this car that he bought an SL for himself and his fondness for this sports/luxury cruiser paved the way for the Lotus Esprit.

Likewise with the 827 Coupe I have, I fitted the roll bars from the Vit sport model which for me makes the handling much more like a modern flat handling car without in anyway compromising the ride. I think as a result the car feels quite more solid and safe not only round corners but in a straight line, depending on the camber of the road.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:52 pm

I think the design brief for the original Lexus LS 400 design team was to make the worlds best car. In Practical Classics a month or two back there was a comparison article featuring things like Audis, Mercs, a Bentley, Lexus, Jag BMW etc all claiming to be the "Worlds Bet Car". Unlimited funds for the development budget helped a lot of course but surprisingly the Bentley came out as the top choice. Not so much for the fact it was best but because it was the one most of the journos involved wanted to take home - for the kudos i expect!

The Lexus came out very well against the others, so well in fact that if the worst ever happened to my Sterling, i'd seriously consider one.

As for the ARBs, when you consider the car Tony Pond piloted around the TT course only had those, uprated dampers and springs and a beefy exhaust it shows how well the 827 handles with the right suspension, mostly down to those ARBs in fairness. Yes, the springs and shocks gave it more of an edge round the track for him but would probably be too harsh for an executive express as they were quite often called in the 80s/90s.

I was surprised though how much of an improvement the ARBs made on my Sterling but even more surprised that my Coupé handled fairly flat when i got it. Turned out it had a 23mm front and 21mm rear ARB and when i fitted the 26mm ARB (which i wanted to do obviously but found it didn't make as much difference as when i did the Sterling but that was only a 19 or 21mm front ARB when i got it) it was more to be able to renew the ARB bushes than for the purpose of improved handling.

Have to say, i don't have any problems about the car feeling unsafe with adverse cambers, perhaps because i'm so used to them round here! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:51 pm

Still awaiting the rear hub. As far as I know it has cleared UK customs and is on the way to the delivery depot. And then once there I might find out if I have customs fees to pay.
Hopefully when I get this fitted there will be no more abs problems.(assuming the garage has now fitted the brake master cylinder as well)I say hopefully because looking through my notes I've actually had the ABS light fault of some kind or another since 2016.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:18 am

As far as i know Charles, it won't leave customs until the consignee has paid the duty so if you haven't had to pay anything yet and it's left customs you should be ok i think - not 100% sure but that's how i've always understood it.

Let's hope this solves your ABS once and for all! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:39 am

Spoken to a DHL advisor. Apparently there is customs tax to pay (£19.00)so I'm due a letter tomorrow which I'll deal with then.
As for the master cylinder, Simon the mechanic said it ain't gonna fit, so I've asked the seller just now if I can return that.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:09 pm

That's a pain in the ar5e that you have to pay customs duty on it! I've learned something there, it can be released without the duty being paid in advance.

It's a bigger pain in the ar5e that the master cylinder won't fit - has he said why it won't fit? If he says the pipes are on the wrong side, can you get photos of the new one and also of the old one on the car please? I have an idea but won't know for sure if my idea is right until i'm able to see the pipework and cylinders.

It could of course be the mountings that are incorrect but if it's the right part number (SJC10007) then it should be a straight swap. :o :? :shock:
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Charles827si
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:54 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:09 pm
That's a pain in the ar5e that you have to pay customs duty on it! I've learned something there, it can be released without the duty being paid in advance.

It's a bigger pain in the ar5e that the master cylinder won't fit - has he said why it won't fit? If he says the pipes are on the wrong side, can you get photos of the new one and also of the old one on the car please? I have an idea but won't know for sure if my idea is right until i'm able to see the pipework and cylinders.

It could of course be the mountings that are incorrect but if it's the right part number (SJC10007) then it should be a straight swap. :o :? :shock:
With regards to the master cylinder; the pipework is different. This particular master cylinder I have has MG branded on the servo (so I reckon it would be the Nanjing/Saic MG TF parts). Next to the branding is a part number; SBB000280 (actually labelled on the servo unit itself)
So this seems completely the wrong part if SJC10007 should have been in place on the label.

I'll get pics Dave.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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scoobyh123
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:08 pm

Eeek! Something has gone pear-shaped! Have a look at this Charles :

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-SBB000280

The actual part that part number relates to!

Even Brown & Gammons list that number as a Throttle cable for an MG-f/TF so something has gone seriously wong somewhere!

https://www.ukmgparts.com/product/mgf-m ... -sbb000280

Oops! Just spotted my typo - i meant to type "wrong" but it kind of fits given all circumstances! :P

Doing a search online, it only comes up with throttle cables for MGs so a unique part number.

Annoyingly you now have to get to the bottom of this set-back before continuing in your hunt to sort the ABS!
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Charles827si
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:17 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:08 pm
Eeek! Something has gone pear-shaped! Have a look at this Charles :

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-SBB000280

The actual part that part number relates to!

Even Brown & Gammons list that number as a Throttle cable for an MG-f/TF so something has gone seriously wong somewhere!

https://www.ukmgparts.com/product/mgf-m ... -sbb000280

Oops! Just spotted my typo - i meant to type "wrong" but it kind of fits given all circumstances! :P

Doing a search online, it only comes up with throttle cables for MGs so a unique part number.

Annoyingly you now have to get to the bottom of this set-back before continuing in your hunt to sort the ABS!
My mistake :shock: SJB000280 is what I should have typed. Just getting those pics now.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Charles827si
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:29 pm

Being defeated by wonderful modern technology. Cannot upload to Onedrive, dropbox or attach in email. May take time Dave.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

User avatar
scoobyh123
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Posts: 12154
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:32 pm

That's the master cylinder for 2000 on MG TFs and isn't interchangeable with the earlier one!

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID018930

Item #1 on there Charles, have a look at all the various part numbers! All different applications/markets etc.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

User avatar
Charles827si
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Posts: 1166
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:35 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:32 pm
That's the master cylinder for 2000 on MG TFs and isn't interchangeable with the earlier one!

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID018930

Item #1 on there Charles, have a look at all the various part numbers! All different applications/markets etc.
I see that Dave but it was the seller who sent me this part, whereas I had specifically asked for the SJC10007 in the first place.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Charles827si
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Posts: 1166
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:08 pm
Location: Nr Keighley, West Yorkshire
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:41 pm

According to this, there are some at MGOC (if this is correct at current date). The other company is where I bought mine from.
https://www.mgroverpartfinder.com/Distr ... 6browse%3d
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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