Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

[Charles827si]

Usually they're a lot better than servo brakes - much less pressure is need to bring a lot of braking force into effect. Very handy with nearly 2 tonnes of Jag to bring to a halt!

If you've ever driven a Citroen BX, CX and i think XM/Xantia used the same system you'll know the brakes are pretty sharp.

Thats interesting. Come to think of it, I don't think i've ever driven any citroen model.
One French car I have driven is a 206 with a faulty electric idle control valve. (could be a common fault depending on engine type).

[scoobyh123]

Faulty idle control valve or blocked breathers and filthy throttle body? That was very common on them starting with the Pug 205 GTi and remained a common fault all the wat through because those engines are heavy breathers.
When i worked in a Pug-rot main dealers, we were forever getting 205s, 206s, 305,s, 306s, 405/406s all coming in with the same fault. Whip the air intake trunking off the throttle body, spray liberally with carb cleaner, remove the breather hoses from inlet manifold and other places, spray through the stubs and hoses, put it all back together and take it for an Italian decoke, job done, idling nice and smooth again.

Another car that used power brakes was the Rolls-Royce but i can't remember which models, similar Bentleys did too i believe so that puts them all of an age where they were still UK owned.

[Richard Moss]

The Rolls Royce/Bentley system was actually the Citroen system. Cars like the Silver Shadow, Bentley Mulsanne etc.

The Citroen hydro pneumatic system is superb - I had 3 BX's and loved them all. The main accumulators had to be in good condition but were only 30-40 quid to replace and the there's only one. Life cycle costs are no higher than a conventional suspension, steering and brake setup but the performance is streets ahead.

[scoobyh123]

Thanks Richard - you're right, RR used the Citroen hydraulic system. I've heard rumours part of the reason they eventually dropped it was owners complained about paying for the LHM fluid (Liquide Hydraulique Minerale i think - mineral hydraulic liquid in English anyway!) and another part of the reason was accumulator failure.

Apparently Rolls-Royces and Bentleys DON'T break down! They just "Fail To Proceed".

You're right about the models that used it as well, i just couldn't think of them at the time. It was certainly a good system, i looked at buying a BX16RS about 30 years ago and found that very smooth but was shocked to discover the depreciation was even higher than the Ambassador i had at the time that had BLs answer to the Citroen system with the Hydragas suspension. That was also very smooth, shame they don't still make it in a way.

PS - spotted a contribution from you to Practical Classics on Pg39 of the current issue, a nice Jag! If i remember i'll add a photo of it later!

[Charles827si]

Not sure what the issue was with the 'Pug' at the time Dave. (back in 2009) It's just a car I borrowed from work and I don't know if that still exists or if the problem was ever fixed.
It just so happened that every time I would be driving slow or coming to a stop, the engine would rev like crazy.
Could have been embarrassing if pedestrians were crossing at the lights in front (but fortunately never happened).

[Charles827si]

Just thought since it's been some time sharing photos, I would post some images from the past 2 years I have taken whilst out and about. (some of my favourites here.) The top picture at MG was taken shortly before the unfortunate incident where I buckled one of my nicely refurbished alloys on a big big pothole which I never saw coming Pic heavy!
how do you print screen
upload pictures free



The Yorkshire Dales 'Kettlewell'




City of York. NCP car park near the train station. This image below, I have as my desktop background on my Windows Laptop!

[scoobyh123]

Quite often one of the symptoms of blocked breathers on those Pugs was the ECU thought it was going to stall so opened up the EICV to about 2000rpm - just enough to petrify the pedestrians on the crossings!

Some great photos there as well Charles - last one looks very "Bodie and Doyle"! Maybe if The Professionals had been made 15 years later Cowley would have had an 827 Sterling, Doyle a Vitesse Turbo or 827 Coupé and Bodie a 620Ti but it certainly sets yours off well in that setting!

[Charles827si]

Maybe if The Professionals had been made 15 years later Cowley would have had an 827 Sterling, Doyle a Vitesse Turbo or 827 Coupé and Bodie a 620Ti but it certainly sets yours off well in that setting!

Thats an idea! But didnt they drive Capris and Escort RS2000's?
I didnt think much to the Sweeny update (which was quite recent) but the Focus RS was a nice choice.
I watched a very old Top Gear episide where Tiff Needle was hooning around doing power slides and handbrake turns in a Rover 200 BRM and scaring poor Quentin Wilson in the process!
Much underated car the 200BRM and would have been great to see in the movies too.

[scoobyh123]

For the most part, yes. However in the first series, Cowley had an SD1 (yellow, MOO229R), Doyle had a TR7 and Bodie had a Dolomite Sprint. In the very first few programs, Cowley was in a Silver Shadow, Doyle had a P6 2000 auto and Bodie had something i can't remember now.

I was just thinking of moving it on 15 years or so from when it was first made. The Capri had gone, the Granada was the Scorpio and there was only the various "sporty" Sierra and Escort models, maybe the Fiesta as well.

I saw the film version of The Sweeney update, as you say the Focus RS was a good choice for it now and Ray Winstone made a good alternative to John Thaw but the rest was a bit of a let-down.

I doubt it takes much to scare Quentin Wilson, Tiff Needell was always a nutter in cars.

[Charles827si]

For the most part, yes. However in the first series, Cowley had an SD1 (yellow, MOO229R), Doyle had a TR7 and Bodie had a Dolomite Sprint. In the very first few programs, Cowley was in a Silver Shadow, Doyle had a P6 2000 auto and Bodie had something i can't remember now.

I was just thinking of moving it on 15 years or so from when it was first made. The Capri had gone, the Granada was the Scorpio and there was only the various "sporty" Sierra and Escort models, maybe the Fiesta as well.

I saw the film version of The Sweeney update, as you say the Focus RS was a good choice for it now and Ray Winstone made a good alternative to John Thaw but the rest was a bit of a let-down.

I doubt it takes much to scare Quentin Wilson, Tiff Needell was always a nutter in cars.

I remember now..yes the team (if you will) all had BMC/BL products to begin with initially.
I used to watch the reruns as a kid along with Airwolf and Knight Rider.
That was in the mid 90s. My dad had a H-Reg grey Ford Granny (not sure 2.3?). This was replaced by an L reg Granny which in turn was replaced with a nice black M reg Rover 820si. (the most unreliable of dads company cars it should be said). It broke down on the driveway a couple of times and twice in the same day. The Rover was replaced with an N-reg Ford Scorpio (bug eye).
I remember my uncle seeing it and he said yuk!

[scoobyh123]

If memory serves correctly the H reg Granada would have been either a 2.4 or 2.9, Ford made the engines slightly bigger to go with the trend of the time while claiming improved emissions, performance and economy.

As for the "bug-eye" Scorpio, my first thoughts on those were a squashed, wide-mouthed frog. They haven't changed!

In The Sweeney, Ford had supplied a lot of the cars used, hence the now-iconic Consul 3000 GT used by "Regan and Carter" and the sponsorship by Ford was fantastic advertising for them. Even now many blokes of a certain age hanker after a 3.0S Capri so they can do a "running slide" over the bonnet and then jump in and drive off like they've just stolen it - or are Martin Shaws stunt driver double.

About that time BL saw Fords increased sales and came to a deal with Mark One Productions, the people who actually made The Professionals, to supply cars for the series.
Sadly in true BL fashion of the time, much penny-pinching was involved and instead of the latest cars, carefully prepared for reliability and so on, they got what they were given which from what i have gleaned from reading on the web about it, was probably the factory mules given a spruce-up and that was it. Many were unreliable causing production problems with the program so Ford jumped in with a deal that wasn't refused.

It's what happens when you get aristocracy running car companies and thinking tv is only for the lower classes that can't afford to drive and should make do with whatever scraps they are given. Very short-sighted but that was the way BL was managed at the time.

If it hadn't been, the P6 would have become the SD1 much sooner, perhaps even from launch, there would have been a Triumph Lynx (3 door hatchback TR7), the Princess would have been launched in 1974 ish with the "O" series instead of not getting it until 5-6 years later, possibly there would have even been a 16v M or even T series Princess and all this might even have paid for the Maestro styling committee to actually meet so they could see what everone else was doing!

[Richard Moss]

I'm with you on the Princess Hydragas, Dave - supremely comfortable (I loved my Dad's V reg 2200 HLS). My daughter's 1996 Rover 100 (Metro mk4 ) is surprisingly smooth riding, too.

The XK looked like a nice, but not perfect, usable car rather than a show queen.

[scoobyh123]

The one thing that has always surprised me Richard is that they never offered Hydragas or something similar on the 800 - that's my only real criticism of any 800 i've ever owned apart from the dodgy French electrical bits namely the front fogs and remote fobs (all borrowed from the Renault 21).

The ride could be a bit better, it's pretty good but still a little choppy over rough roads. That said i had an Ambassador once that had lost a lot of its pressure and it felt like it was bouncing on its bump stops - in fact it probably was! A quick pump up at a local garage had it sorted and nice and smooth again though.

As for the XK, imperfect but nice and usable wins out in my book over show queens. Don't get me wrong, show queens are lovely to look at and a real credit to their owners but if i had one i'd be afraid to drive it, just in case it got dinged.

[Richard Moss]

The 800 was a joint venture with Honda who would never have gone for the Hydragas setup. The suspension system was pretty much pure Honda and they, in my opinion, really didn't know what they were doing when it can to luxury cars - they'd never made one. However, they were holding the purse strings........

[scoobyh123]

The 800 was a joint venture with Honda who would never have gone for the Hydragas setup. The suspension system was pretty much pure Honda and they, in my opinion, really didn't know what they were doing when it can to luxury cars - they'd never made one. However, they were holding the purse strings........

That's very true in all respects Richard which is why they approached Rover - because Rover had made luxury cars!
Honda were very fond of their double wishbone set-up with what are effectively coil-over shocks on the front but couldn't see it didn't give the necessary travel for a luxurious ride. It does handle well though! That said, so do McPherson struts so a compromise should have been found.

That's not just your opinion, even Honda didn't know what they were doing with luxury cars.

Rover could have done the suspension differently, after all they did the dashboard differently with the "wrap-around" effect into the door cards that the president/CEO of Honda loved and keel-hauled his engineers/designers for not thinking of. The only thing is, i suspect the inner wing/suspension turret area would have to be re-engineered for a McP strut to increase the strength of the inner wing rather than just the area where the upper wishbone bolts on.

Again, Rover did the upper wishbone differently to Honda. They used phosphor-bronze bushes and thrust bearings housed in a rubber " beaker" that fits into the tube linking both "legs" of the wishbone and uses a long bolt as the fulcrum.
Honda used simple rubber bushes and a slightly different wishbone shape.



This made the upper wishbones "handed" but a complete arm with ball joint for £44 from RockAuto is very tempting compared to just the bearing assembly from Rimmers for £55, even if it is necessary to buy a pair to make both sides the same. It looks more rigid and durable than the pressed steel affair that Rover fitted.

Sorry for the threadjack Charles - hopefully you're enjoying this slight diversion though!