Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:20 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:Having the heater on to keep your hoofs warm will warm the relay up as well Charles! :wink: :shock: Of course it depends how warm you like your hoofs...........

Sounds like you had a nice drive round, good the main relay behaved itself! Or did it? :? :?: :idea:

There aren't any relays in the drivers door, the window ECU and its associated relays are under the passenger seat, however sometimes the Main Relay can sound as if it's in the drivers door, particularly with the slightly different architecture of the coupé - also the relay on the fuseboard can do similar and create havoc with windows, wipers and one or two other things i can't think of just now. If the fuseboard was recently resoldered and/or known good, try replacing that yellow relay in the middle of it.
It could have been the priming part of the Main Relay clicking, this is what supplies the fuel pump when the engine isn't running, even if it's being turned over on the starter. While the engine is running the other half of the Main Relay supplies the pump so you wouldn't notice any symptoms but the clicking could indicate a dry joint within the Main Relay on the priming half of it which is what would cause the non-starting.

I might be clutching at straws here and totally off track but i'd say it's a fair bet that's what it was - my coupé did the same shortly before the Main Relay stranded me for a few minutes the first and only time (resoldered it once i got it home). :wink: :D
That's very interesting so I need to look at the main relay for sure. I know which yellow relay you refer to. Do you think it's possible that changing the ignitor unit has indirectly affected the relay? I noticed when I started the car up it was more shaky then usually, and the revs abit higher then before, but this settled down after a while. cheers
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:32 pm

There's no connection between the Main Relay and igniter Charles so it's highly unlikely. Revving higher when cold, a bit shaky and rough?
I'd make a guess you've not used it for a day or two, the weather has been very damp and the leads are maybe getting a bit old. Mine has done the same the past few times i've used it for those reasons.
Also the battery on mine is past its best (well and truly, i have to reprogram the windows after each cold start, they're ok for the rest of the day usually) so could be corrupting the main PGM-Fi ECU slightly each time, need to renew the battery before winter sets in really. :roll: :wink: :D
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by traineefarmer » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:11 pm

So are the 225s a fairly common fitment to the sport wheels? I quite fancy the idea of this, but does it cause any issues with fouling?

Also from the discussions above, am I right in thinking that the speedo ratios are the same across all models? I thought that some gearboxes (pg1 specifically) were fitted with different plastic gears on the diff to drive the speedo take off, or am I thinking of the other rover ranges such as 200 & 600??? :?

It's not something I'd want to mess about with then test at the nearest gatso. :D
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:20 am

If you've got a sat-nav with a speedo function on it Tom, you could drive along and compare the sat-nav to the speedo or download an app for a speedo (or performance testing) and use your phone. That should answer whether going to a 225 will make your speedo read slow as you can then compare the speed shown on your speedo at say 50mph (as shown on the sat-nav/speed app) and add 1.44% (the difference in diameter between a 225 and a 215) and see if that gets your speedo more accurate or makes it slow.

Not sure how common it is to fit the 225s or if it causes any fouling. I did consider at one point fitting 225/50/16s to one of mine but with a 6J rim, as i pointed out to Charles earlier in the thread, that pushing my luck! Now i've got 7Js on the coupé i might think about it when the tyres are due for renewal but i think they probably would foul, especially the N/S rear on the fuel filler neck! :shock: A set of spacers would probably sort that out but then there are the arches........

Then there's the other problem associated with tyres that are too wide where they tend to pick up in/on a ridge/rut on the road and follow it. You'd probably not notice it as much with yours due to the stiffer Vitesse suspension but i suspect on mine i'd get dragged into all kinds of odd places! Especially round here!!! :lol: :lol: :wink: :D
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Dave

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by midnite » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:32 pm

I've got 225 50 16 on my prestige rims, no fouling, and handles well, with some give in the sidewalls but no where near as much as 65 profile tyres.
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Alucard7002 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:13 am

On the subject of tyre widths:

Wider tyre than rim = sidewall rollover "soggy" feeling (and greater tendency to "tramline" as Dave said)

Narrower tyre than rim = looks very odd IMHO, increases chances of tyre slipping off the bead during "enthusiastic" driving, tyre wears on the sidewall more than the tread (less grip) Doesn't protect rim edge from kerb bashing

+/- 10mm (one size up or down) is the most I would say is sensible in my opinion. Speedometer reading difference is negligible.

225 WILL foul on the front brake reaction bar if you have a non-Vitesse steering rack (the Vitesse models had steering rack spacers to reduce the already laughable steering lock)

You may not notice it if you are a more reserved driver and don't use full lock under load ;-) However pulling a u-turn on a mini roundabout is enough to cause the inner sidewall on my 820s tyres to JUST catch the brake reaction bar rust layer! (205/55/16 @ 36psi for reference)

Coupe looks great Charles! I'm rather envious of you I must admit, I do miss the 827 Manual fastback I had a while back.

It was a cracking machine and such a pleasure to waft along with the butter smooth V6, both 820s of mine feel very rough in comparison. Though the Vitesse is an absolute dream to surge along the torque curve, great fun surprising local louts ;-)
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:03 am

Alucard7002 wrote:
Coupe looks great Charles! I'm rather envious of you I must admit, I do miss the 827 Manual fastback I had a while back.

It was a cracking machine and such a pleasure to waft along with the butter smooth V6, ;-)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172415276922? ... EBIDX%3AIT

There you go, solution to both! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:01 pm

Alucard7002 wrote:On the subject of tyre widths:

Wider tyre than rim = sidewall rollover "soggy" feeling (and greater tendency to "tramline" as Dave said)

Narrower tyre than rim = looks very odd IMHO, increases chances of tyre slipping off the bead during "enthusiastic" driving, tyre wears on the sidewall more than the tread (less grip) Doesn't protect rim edge from kerb bashing

+/- 10mm (one size up or down) is the most I would say is sensible in my opinion. Speedometer reading difference is negligible.

225 WILL foul on the front brake reaction bar if you have a non-Vitesse steering rack (the Vitesse models had steering rack spacers to reduce the already laughable steering lock)

You may not notice it if you are a more reserved driver and don't use full lock under load ;-) However pulling a u-turn on a mini roundabout is enough to cause the inner sidewall on my 820s tyres to JUST catch the brake reaction bar rust layer! (205/55/16 @ 36psi for reference)

Coupe looks great Charles! I'm rather envious of you I must admit, I do miss the 827 Manual fastback I had a while back.

It was a cracking machine and such a pleasure to waft along with the butter smooth V6, both 820s of mine feel very rough in comparison. Though the Vitesse is an absolute dream to surge along the torque curve, great fun surprising local louts ;-)
Thanks for the input and nice compliment Dusan. I set the car up to be more driver orientated compared to the 827 automatic as Rover perhaps could have done; by fitting the largest antiroll bars from the Vit Sport model (which the wheels would have been fitted to as well and this helps through corners, as well as gripping a steering wheel made thicker with a £7.99 'halfrauds' wood effect cover. :)

I had this car chip tuned, but it has in no way altered performance apart from changing through the gears more seamless, almost in a manor that a decent auto changes gears for itself.
I've been toying with the idea of putting Motabuild V6 sports suspension on, (though not for the time being) and when the exhaust does need replacing, I might get a quieter sounding stainless made up (but with no CAT).
Been looking into the rules regarding MOTs and Catalysts - the basic emission test (which may car had) did not require checking the catalytic converter itself. I think as long as the engine is kept running clean, the car would pass emissions testing without the CAT.
Also being an early K reg, (logbook states September 1992) I guess the engine would have been built slightly before the regulations came into effect for CAT's in 1992.
So providing the engine model number is not showing up on the MOT testing criteria as needing a catalytic converter, then the good chance possibility is; I do away with that. Besides not all cars built before 1992 are required to have a CAT fitted, even if some models had these items fitted at the factory.
At best the drivability of the car will be improved as will fuel consumption (maybe just enough so)
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Manalishi » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:25 pm

A note on tyres:

I used to have 225/45/17 on my vit sport wheels and this Summer I swapped for original 215/45/17. (On my T16 vitesse coupe)

With the larger wheels the car felt different regarding engine note. More grunt and lower revs in motorway speeds. The smaller wheels have very much made the car feel smaller, as if it had a smaller engine. Now I'm not sure this is good or bad, but it sounded more "Raw" or "Potent" before.

Fuel consumption has dropped very little but performance is the same. Actually I was certain the performance (acceleration) should be better with smaller wheels, and maybe it is in the very low speeds/off the mark, but as the gears pulled longer with the larger wheels it felt quicker with those in "real conditions".

The inner arch rubbed at full lock on one side (IIRC) but I never turn the wheel to full lock, so this was not an issue.

To summarize, bigger wheels made the car quite different. Not better. Not worse. Different.
Henrik
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:36 pm

Manalishi wrote:A note on tyres:

I used to have 225/45/17 on my vit sport wheels and this Summer I swapped for original 215/45/17. (On my T16 vitesse coupe)

With the larger wheels the car felt different regarding engine note. More grunt and lower revs in motorway speeds. The smaller wheels have very much made the car feel smaller, as if it had a smaller engine. Now I'm not sure this is good or bad, but it sounded more "Raw" or "Potent" before.

Fuel consumption has dropped very little but performance is the same. Actually I was certain the performance (acceleration) should be better with smaller wheels, and maybe it is in the very low speeds/off the mark, but as the gears pulled longer with the larger wheels it felt quicker with those in "real conditions".

The inner arch rubbed at full lock on one side (IIRC) but I never turn the wheel to full lock, so this was not an issue.

To summarize, bigger wheels made the car quite different. Not better. Not worse. Different.
It's interesting you've had those thoughts on the different tyre sizes, as my thoughts are pretty much the same regarding the impact on the cars performance since changing to larger wheels. It does feel to have more raw power and grunt. The revs are a fair bit higher at 70mph, but I don't do regular motorway driving (well not like I once did).
The wheels don't seem to rub on full lock, but if I did lower the suspension, then that would be problematic..
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Manalishi » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:48 pm

Charles827si wrote:
Manalishi wrote:A note on tyres:

I used to have 225/45/17 on my vit sport wheels and this Summer I swapped for original 215/45/17. (On my T16 vitesse coupe)

With the larger wheels the car felt different regarding engine note. More grunt and lower revs in motorway speeds. The smaller wheels have very much made the car feel smaller, as if it had a smaller engine. Now I'm not sure this is good or bad, but it sounded more "Raw" or "Potent" before.

Fuel consumption has dropped very little but performance is the same. Actually I was certain the performance (acceleration) should be better with smaller wheels, and maybe it is in the very low speeds/off the mark, but as the gears pulled longer with the larger wheels it felt quicker with those in "real conditions".

The inner arch rubbed at full lock on one side (IIRC) but I never turn the wheel to full lock, so this was not an issue.

To summarize, bigger wheels made the car quite different. Not better. Not worse. Different.
It's interesting you've had those thoughts on the different tyre sizes, as my thoughts are pretty much the same regarding the impact on the cars performance since changing to larger wheels. It does feel to have more raw power and grunt. The revs are a fair bit higher at 70mph, but I don't do regular motorway driving (well not like I once did).
The wheels don't seem to rub on full lock, but if I did lower the suspension, then that would be problematic..
To make one more note: I think my car is somewhat different regarding power compared to the C27. I have the T16-turbo with upped boost, exhaust and filter and this makes the power and torque quite extraordinary below 3000rpm. The car is so strong and fast in those revs it's ridiculous. Compared to the GS300 which has 250bhp (and 300nm at 3k rpm) the Rover is a rocket, so it can surely handle the larger more heavy wheels.

However the car looks better on 215... And this is becoming more important.
Henrik
Rover 820 Vitesse Coupe 180bhp -93 (Italy)
Rover 827 Vitesse manual (non cat) -89 (Spain)
Lexus GS450h -13
Austin Seven Special -36
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Rover 820 ti -95
Rover 216 DOHC coupe -93
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:59 pm

Charles - if you phone VoSA with your reg number they can confirm whether you can get away with the BET or a full cat test is required. I'd say almost without doubt you scrape comfortably into the BET category, after all my Sterling does and that is March 94 registered! Conversely my coupé (Sept 95) is way past the grace period applied for cars that were sat in showrooms before being registered.

Any MoT tester worth his salt should know this anyway and enter your cars details on the emissions tester as a BET - the computer will then check through the database and confirm/refute whether it can have the BET or must have full cat. ;) :D
Cheers,
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:48 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:Charles - if you phone VoSA with your reg number they can confirm whether you can get away with the BET or a full cat test is required. I'd say almost without doubt you scrape comfortably into the BET category, after all my Sterling does and that is March 94 registered! Conversely my coupé (Sept 95) is way past the grace period applied for cars that were sat in showrooms before being registered.

Any MoT tester worth his salt should know this anyway and enter your cars details on the emissions tester as a BET - the computer will then check through the database and confirm/refute whether it can have the BET or must have full cat. ;) :D
I'll look into this Dave, (good suggestions) and if I do end up calling VOSA then I will be sure to relay what they have to say.. :)
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by CHR15E » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:45 am

Charles827si wrote:It's interesting you've had those thoughts on the different tyre sizes, as my thoughts are pretty much the same regarding the impact on the cars performance since changing to larger wheels. It does feel to have more raw power and grunt. The revs are a fair bit higher at 70mph, but I don't do regular motorway driving (well not like I once did).
The wheels don't seem to rub on full lock, but if I did lower the suspension, then that would be problematic..
You may have changed to larger wheels but unless you've swapped the 205/40/17 tyres your rolling radius is far smaller than it was with the 16" wheels you were using before.

That's why you're noticing the differences.
Chris
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:17 am

Charles827si wrote:
scoobyh123 wrote:Charles - if you phone VoSA with your reg number they can confirm whether you can get away with the BET or a full cat test is required. I'd say almost without doubt you scrape comfortably into the BET category, after all my Sterling does and that is March 94 registered! Conversely my coupé (Sept 95) is way past the grace period applied for cars that were sat in showrooms before being registered.

Any MoT tester worth his salt should know this anyway and enter your cars details on the emissions tester as a BET - the computer will then check through the database and confirm/refute whether it can have the BET or must have full cat. ;) :D
I'll look into this Dave, (good suggestions) and if I do end up calling VOSA then I will be sure to relay what they have to say.. :)
There was a guy over on the Volvo forum had exactly this scenario with his dads 940 2.0LPT, he phoned VoSA and they confirmed it was eligible for the BET even though it was registered on 4/9/92 and was fitted with a cat. Even when it was new apparently it wouldn't meet the cat test standards :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

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'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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