A funny thing happened this week

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A funny thing happened this week

Post by Charles827si » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:48 pm

I went on to Bradford a couple of days ago to the Shell Garage (my nearest shell in Saltaire Village is shut down for a refurb). While I was in Bradford, I went to look at the Jaguar dealer (Appleyard's of Bradford). This (at the time) was the same Austin Rover dealer where my Dad bought for my Mum a brand new Rover 827si Atlantic blue (JPW Paintcode) fastback manual in 1989; - the car which I still look after myself today.

I was driving in my 827 manual Coupe, and I parked in the customer car park. I got out to have a look at the very nice new XF saloon car and the F-type sports car which were positioned very keenly on the forecourt. At this point two Jaguar salesmen, in black Jaguar branded light waterproof coats came out and said hello.
One of the guys called Mike instantly struck up a conversation about my Coupe, and how he was just talking only a week ago about buying one of these cars. He went straight over with me, to my car and offered to buy the car off me. (This is very true by the way). I told him it would need alot of work, it had just passed it's MOT but it has four advisory notices and that the wheel arch would perhaps need to be replaced again properly (ie cut out) since it has rusted quite badly through again after the amount of times I have the car professionally washed each week.

He asked me, how much I would take for the car. In my mind at the moment, the car is worth only £600. I said to him I would take £1500 and his words were 'that's a steal', 'can I buy it?'

I turned him down, because I had earlier asked for a test drive of the F-type, but like I said to him, I was not looking for a new car for a good two years because I had just bought a new car. So I think on this basis he in some way declined to allow me, a potential legitimate buyer the opportunity. He actually recognised the Hyundai key on the Rover dashboard, even though it was faced button side up with no logo showing.

I never had any intensions and still don't have to sell the Coupe - I could even have asked for £2000 and he still might have wanted the car, but I would still have turned him down, because this car is my pride and joy. As much as I like the Jaguar F-type, I'll still keep pouring more money into my 2 800's where financially possible. Though unfortunately, like some people on the forum have also realized, it's not economically sensible to use these cars every day, unless you can afford that. At least they are cheaper to tax, insure, run with lower maintenance cost of the XF, which is the modern day equivalent to the 800.

The moral of the story is, you will always find the right buyer for a decent old banger willing to pay more then the average bloke. And also you might just get turned down for a test drive of your dream car, even if people think, you are not loaded with money bags.
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:55 am

A very interesting tale Charles - in my opnion i think he should have offered you an extremely generous P/X on the Hyundai against a new XF with 3 years free servicing and road tax thrown in just to get you into the Jag. :D :wink:

That's slightly tongue in cheek, i doubt he could offer all of that but at least some of it. It also suggests his conversation about your coupe was a bit of a ploy, he might have been genuine but using it as a ploy nonetheless.

Perhaps i'm just a cynical old git and i'm looking for the worst in the salesman but i've seen many used and new car sales people amongst others use whatever tool comes to hand to get their prospect talking and softened up.

I think with any car there comes a point where you're throwing good money after bad aka it becomes a labour of love and relegated to a "high days and holidays" use only car simply to reduce the wear and tear to an affordable level to keep up with. That said there are no "moderns" that fill me even vaguely with the anticipation of driving them the way my 827s do. No matter which way you look at it, unless you are looking at cars with supercar performance, there's still not much to touch the 827 for the all round package. Yes there might be quicker cars or more economical but i've driven some of those and they are so bland they make a blank piece of paper interesting!

So like you i'll keep doing whatever is necessary to keep mine on the road as well.
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by Charles827si » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:40 am

Like you say Dave, the talk about the Coupe could have been a ploy, but he did seem quite interested in the car. I told him a lot about it and how it was quite rare, being a Honda V6 manual, and his mate said the KV6 manuals are virtually non existent. I told him how much I had spent, on things like the wood work, taking it to a furniture restorer, he noted the new Kenwood DAB Bluetooth stereo, I showed him the engine and said it had HID lighting, which he seemed bemused at. And how much time I spent cleaning the interior (though it looked a mess that day). I explained sometimes I would do late motorway driving with Coupe and that truthfully I find it easier on the eye and the road with the HID lights. I said there were some advisories at the MOT, but I couldn’t say exactly because I didn’t have the MOT sheet to hand.
The fact though that he distracted me from the F-type, which I went there very specifically to look at, was slightly annoying. Like you say, he could have offered me some sort, of deal, if I had really been very interested. I told him, if I had not spent most of my earnings, and saving on Rover 800’s since I was 17 (Basically for the last 9 years of my life) I would have been able to afford a brand new F-type out right no doubt, insured as well, which for a 26-year-old man with a clean licence, would have been wonderful. Though I live in hope that one day, I might be able to afford a very good car like a Jaguar or a Mercedes E convertible.
It's a shame that Tata does not bring back ‘Rover’ and make it a more exclusive version of a Jaguar, almost like a baby Rolls Royce sort of Rover P5, and build these better than a Mercedes or an Audi.
I think there is a niche in the market for this type of sub luxury car. If I was like Sir Richard Branson, that is what I would do; try and get the rights to the Rover name plate (bearing in mind you could not build 4 by 4’s since BMW put on this restriction in the agreement terms), set up a large factory in the UK, a workforce, a design and engineering facility(s), testing facility’s, a proving ground, and using as many component manufacturers that are still left in the UK as possible for the cars. A proper wood, and leather shop etc.
There just needs to be someone like a wealthy Chinese or Saudi tycoon to step in and do that.
Charles 'Yorks'
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:29 am

Did you fit the HID lighting yourself Charles? It's something i've been thinking of for a while now but with mixed feelings.

Also been looking at restoring the woodwork myself as well, i know Ryan (HotFuzz87(?)) restored at least one of his wood panels by rubbing the lacquer off and relacquering it.

Like you, if i had the money i'd spent on cars over the years i would also be very wealthy now but in some respects life is weighted against us. By the time most of us are able to afford to buy, run and maintain something erotic we're too old to enjoy it. :cry: Because we can't afford to go out and buy/insure/maintain/run some sort of exotic supercar when we're 17-18 years old, we generally have to run about in cars that are one breakdown away from the scrapyard.

I think BMW still own the "Rover" brand hence the Chinese renaming it "Roewe" to get round trade mark laws although i'm led to belive in certain Chinese dialects, that is in fact pronounced "Rover". Strangely i think BMW still also own the rights to "Triumph Acclaim" which translates to "Sieg Heil" - can't think why they hung on to that! :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That aside, a friend of mine and i often fantasise about bringing Rover back with a model line up along the lines of the SD1, 800 and 75, with modern, up to date and reliable engines, electrics, lighting etc. Obviously the build standard would be similar to what you suggest with proper wood and leather workshops and all the other things you mention.

We all just need to find that tycoon with vision and deep pockets!
Cheers,
Dave

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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by Charles827si » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:47 am

I bought one of the cheaper kits on eBay a while ago - I say cheaper but it was £75.00 including postage. I got a mate of mine to fit it in return for some gardening chores. The woodwork set me back £700.00, so obviously, I'll never ever get that back, unless I hang onto the car for another 50, 60 years, by which time hopefully it will be in the true classic car status realm.

As for the Rover marque itself, it was my understanding that BMW sold the this brand to Tata/JaguarLandRover after the infamous phoenix consortium of 5 business men went bankrupt. BMW retains the defunct Triumph car and Riley marques, and perhaps others. The Chinese I think own MG and Austin. I'm not sure about Morris, or Wolseley, its possible that BMW own both of these or BMW owns Wolseley. I would be interested to find out who owns the Alvis Marque, which Rover acquired in the 1960's. I'm sure it will be on Wikipedia, about who owns the IPR's to what brands, and what technology etc.

As for the pioneering Moulton Hydrogas suspension, I have no idea. Also was the Rover P6 suspension a patented technology?

I think bringing back Rover in the UK is a viable proposition to a wealthy tycoon. We are the second largest car manufacturer in Europe after Germany now, and perhaps the largest by 2020. If things get very bad at VW, they might have to strip their assets and sell the UK Bentley off - who knows.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:54 pm

It's just struck me you're the same age as the Si you own/look after give or take a few months. What made me think of that was your comment about getting your money back on the woodwork by keeping the car another 50-60-70 years. Another 70 years and there's a fair chance the only wheels you're likely to have will be on your Zimmer frame - if i live another 70 years i'll be in the Guinness Book of Records as the Worlds Oldest Man!

I know there was a further hiccup in the ownership of the brand names when Ford owned Jaguar-Land Rover but in what way i'm not sure.
Likewise i'm not sure about the suspension set up on the P6, as far as i'm aware the same diff/in-board disc set up was used on the Series I/II/III Jaguar XJ models but not sure about that floating DeDion tube or whatever it was called on the P6.

The one worrying bit about VW having to sell their assets off is if Bentley did go on the open market - i supect BMW would snap it up to go with Rolls-Royce. That said, if we (by "we" i mean the UK as a whole) could revive Rover and rebuild it into the great British car it once was there is every chance we could knock BMW out of the market place. We nearly did it in the 70s with the Dolomite and again in the 90s with the 600 (outselling the 3 Series by 10 to 1 and even it's sister model the Accord outsold the 3 Series by 3 to 1) so third time lucky.
By then VAG will have also probably fallen by the wayside, a victim of its own "Deceptive Diesel Debacle" so the only European competition would be from Mercedes who would have to up their game considerably.

"Tonight Penfold, we take over the laboratory - tomorrow......the world!"
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by traineefarmer » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:09 pm

FoMoCo bought the Rover brand from BMW while LandRover was part of their Premier Auto Group, it then transfered to TATA when Uncle Henry bailed out on making anything decent.
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:45 pm

So Tata (that name always makes me laugh - i know the meaning of "tatta" in a particular Indian dialect and the two sound similar :lol: :lol: :lol: ) actually own the Rover brand name then Tom?
Quite a strange coincidence, remember the Cityrover and Streetwise? They were made by Tata for Rover as far as i know.
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by traineefarmer » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:41 am

I believe the "corporate strategy" (!?!) is to protect the Land Rover brand from competitors attempting strapping the "Rover" tag to other vehicles. Mind you, I doubt they will be suing NASA for bulding a "Mars-Rover" anytime soon. :lol:

Another forum I'm a member of proclaims the Cityrover to be the "Car that saved Jaguar" :D
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:22 am

traineefarmer wrote: Another forum I'm a member of proclaims the Cityrover to be the "Car that saved Jaguar" :D

I'm not very familiar with the Cityrover but having seen a few i think that "proclamation" is misguided to say the least! Only way i can think it may have saved Jaguar is that it sold well somewhere (but where????? :shock: :shock: :shock: ) and that refloated Tata out of some sort of financial mire to enable them to invest in Jaguar-LandRover.

Hmmm, i can see the headlines now - "Tata sue NASA over Rover Trade Mark" - winner in my book! :lol:
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by Richard Moss » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:08 am

scoobyh123 wrote:So Tata (that name always makes me laugh - i know the meaning of "tatta" in a particular Indian dialect and the two sound similar :lol: :lol: :lol: ) actually own the Rover brand name then Tom?
Quite a strange coincidence, remember the Cityrover and Streetwise? They were made by Tata for Rover as far as i know.
The CityRover was built by TATA but the Streetwise is based on the 200/25 shell and was built at Longbridge
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:14 am

Thanks Richard - i was told that as part of the deal with the Cityrover, Tata were also building the Streetwise for Rover. Obviously the person who told me was misinformed and i've been misinformed since.
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by Charles827si » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:37 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
The one worrying bit about VW having to sell their assets off is if Bentley did go on the open market - i supect BMW would snap it up to go with Rolls-Royce. That said, if we (by "we" i mean the UK as a whole) could revive Rover and rebuild it into the great British car it once was there is every chance we could knock BMW out of the market place. We nearly did it in the 70s with the Dolomite and again in the 90s with the 600 (outselling the 3 Series by 10 to 1 and even it's sister model the Accord outsold the 3 Series by 3 to 1) so third time lucky.
By then VAG will have also probably fallen by the wayside, a victim of its own "Deceptive Diesel Debacle" so the only European competition would be from Mercedes who would have to up their game considerably.

"Tonight Penfold, we take over the laboratory - tomorrow......the world!"
Perhaps that was why BMW bought Rover group in 1994 to begin with - to protect themselves. Rover group I think was quite small, but made very good selling cars like the 600 you mentioned. And they had an interesting brand portfolio like Land Rover, Mini, and MG (even though the only MG badged model in 1994 was the RV8 before the MGF arrived around 95) The Rover brand itself then was still a very strong brand despite the troubles of the SD1 in the 70's/80s. Rover turned that reputation around with the Mk1 Rover 200 (a successor to the older Honda based Triumph Acclaim). A wonderful car with both blends of British style, and Japanese quality and reliability. I used to watch Keeping Up Appearances when I was growing up and fondly remember the Mk1 blue Rover 216. (I think it was a 216 and not a 213). The 213 had a cracking engine. There was such a car with this engine where I did my Level 1 Motor Vehicle course in 2008 - a very easy engine to service in comparison to the Honda 2.7 in the Rover 800. It was a shame that Rover had to cut ties with Honda because of BMW, but at least the 75 came to fruition, even though its engines despite being a good design, did not have Japanese reliability. I found it strange that BMW was more interested in the Triumph brand and not MG. It might be something to do with protecting the Triumph motorcycle division which if I'm right in thinking, BMW group own as well. As for MG now, the MG3 is a good car, but it is not a good all rounder like the new model Hyundai I10 which I bought this year. I don't rate this crossover MG that's launching soon, it could be just another euro slab sided box, like every other similar car these days in Europe. Now that Fiat is launching a new 124 based on the Mazda MK5, MG will really have to up their game alot more then they bargain for, if they want to reappear successfully back in the world market place.
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"92 827 Coupe (manual)
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by Charles827si » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:16 pm

When I was doing my Motor Vehicle Course I used to drive mums 827 there, and service the car. I even had a go at welding it, after practicing on a Mk3 Golf! The tutor said that he used to work for 'Lookers' Rover and when he saw the engine in the 827 his eyes lit up. He said when we used to work on these cars, you could balance a 50p piece on the engine rocker cover while the engine was on it would stay there. (whether that's true I'm not sure but I think my cars are too old to test this theory) He said he would drive the then new 827 Vit model up to 130mph up and down the M606 - the hooligan!!
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
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Re: A funny thing happened this week

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:49 pm

Charles827si wrote:
scoobyh123 wrote:
The one worrying bit about VW having to sell their assets off is if Bentley did go on the open market - i supect BMW would snap it up to go with Rolls-Royce. That said, if we (by "we" i mean the UK as a whole) could revive Rover and rebuild it into the great British car it once was there is every chance we could knock BMW out of the market place. We nearly did it in the 70s with the Dolomite and again in the 90s with the 600 (outselling the 3 Series by 10 to 1 and even it's sister model the Accord outsold the 3 Series by 3 to 1) so third time lucky.
By then VAG will have also probably fallen by the wayside, a victim of its own "Deceptive Diesel Debacle" so the only European competition would be from Mercedes who would have to up their game considerably.

"Tonight Penfold, we take over the laboratory - tomorrow......the world!"
Perhaps that was why BMW bought Rover group in 1994 to begin with - to protect themselves. Rover group I think was quite small, but made very good selling cars like the 600 you mentioned. And they had an interesting brand portfolio like Land Rover, Mini, and MG (even though the only MG badged model in 1994 was the RV8 before the MGF arrived around 95) The Rover brand itself then was still a very strong brand despite the troubles of the SD1 in the 70's/80s. Rover turned that reputation around with the Mk1 Rover 200 (a successor to the older Honda based Triumph Acclaim). A wonderful car with both blends of British style, and Japanese quality and reliability. I used to watch Keeping Up Appearances when I was growing up and fondly remember the Mk1 blue Rover 216. (I think it was a 216 and not a 213). The 213 had a cracking engine. There was such a car with this engine where I did my Level 1 Motor Vehicle course in 2008 - a very easy engine to service in comparison to the Honda 2.7 in the Rover 800. It was a shame that Rover had to cut ties with Honda because of BMW, but at least the 75 came to fruition, even though its engines despite being a good design, did not have Japanese reliability. I found it strange that BMW was more interested in the Triumph brand and not MG. It might be something to do with protecting the Triumph motorcycle division which if I'm right in thinking, BMW group own as well. As for MG now, the MG3 is a good car, but it is not a good all rounder like the new model Hyundai I10 which I bought this year. I don't rate this crossover MG that's launching soon, it could be just another euro slab sided box, like every other similar car these days in Europe. Now that Fiat is launching a new 124 based on the Mazda MK5, MG will really have to up their game alot more then they bargain for, if they want to reappear successfully back in the world market place.
I always thought it was 1996 when BAe sold out to BMW, hence Honda pulling the C27A from the engine line up in 1996. I know a lot of sources report it as 1994 but the evidence suggests otherwise.
The Triumph Acclaim was in fact a Mk1 Honda Ballade and the 213 was a Mk2 Honda Ballade. The bigger engine in the Honda range was a 1.5 12 valve EFi - went like stink! This was the Honda version of the 216 Vitesse but more "pipe and slippers".
I've never really looked at the new MGs, they don't appeal in terms of looks for me and i bet they alll stink of chicken chow mein when they're new! :lol:

What is it with Fiat these days? Not only have they bought Jeep and are launching loads of new Jeep models but tey're launching a new 124 as well?
Charles827si wrote:When I was doing my Motor Vehicle Course I used to drive mums 827 there, and service the car. I even had a go at welding it, after practicing on a Mk3 Golf! The tutor said that he used to work for 'Lookers' Rover and when he saw the engine in the 827 his eyes lit up. He said when we used to work on these cars, you could balance a 50p piece on the engine rocker cover while the engine was on it would stay there. (whether that's true I'm not sure but I think my cars are too old to test this theory) He said he would drive the then new 827 Vit model up to 130mph up and down the M606 - the hooligan!!
I still can balance a 50p piece on the rocker cover of my Sterling :wink: :D but my coupé has some way to go yet - can just about balance a brick on the rocker covers! :wink: :lol:

As for taking the 827 Vitesse up to 130mph, Tony Pond did 150mph in that red one round the Isle of Man! Definite hooligan!
Cheers,
Dave

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