Battery Desulfator

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zcar12
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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by zcar12 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:23 pm

Thanks Dave. If I charge the battery for 3 months, I could have used enough electricity to buy a new battery LOL.

Thanks for posting the chart, I will find it very useful. I do have a Hydrometer but have not used it yet. This should give me more info about the battery state.

Never knew about "battery surplus voltage", never came across that idea before so thanks for that.

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:18 pm

Battery surplus voltage in its simplest form is the battery working overtime because of the heat generated from charging - it settles down to what it should be fairly quickly though. When you consider the average car battery is made of 6 cells, each of 2.2V each, the maximum you should be able to get is 13.2V (6 x 2.2) but generally a fully charged battery gives 12.7V anything over that is surplus voltage.

Ball park figure to charge a battery at 1A (trickle charge) it would take about 4-5 days to use one kW/h or one unit. On that basis and to keep the maths easy (ish), let's say over three months (90 days) it uses 20 units @ 16p/unit, that's £3.20 - please tell me where i can buy a new battery for that Nick! :P
Joking aside, those figures are about right, depending on the battery and its state of charge, the charger and its efficiency and a couple more things (like someones individual tarriff) that's roughly how much it will cost to charge it for three months.

Glad you found the chart useful Nick, always handy to have something like that so you can check things are going in the right direction. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

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zcar12
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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by zcar12 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:05 am

Thank you Dave. When my bills come in, I am always more than a bit surprised that I have used so much more than I expected. So say around £4, its a small price to recover a battery.

Thats a good explanation about battery surplus voltage. I always did wonder why batteries settled down to around 12.4-12.6 colts after charging. Now I know.

This morning, all the cells are showing 1250 SG and the voltage is showing 13.22. So on these figures it is 90% charged. My charger is putting out just over 1 amp.

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:47 pm

Even if i got my calculations horribly wrong Nick and it works out as a fiver over three months to recover the battery, it's still a lot cheaper than a new battery!

The old trick of pouring hot (but not boiling) water from a kettle over a battery on a cold morning to give it a bit of extra push to spin the engine over is another example of battery surplus voltage, it's using the heat as a catalyst to increase the electrolytic action and therefore the power in the battery.
For the same reason, a car with a near-flat battery that just about turns the engine over if left for a few minutes often starts first touch - the heat generated by the first abortive start increases the battery surplus voltage enough to fire the engine next try a few minutes later.

Good to see all the cells are equal on the SG, that means there's a very high chance recovery will be successful. Ideally after a few more weeks desulphation a drop test would be carried out, just to prove what the battery is capable of but the other option is to fit it to the car with the desulphator and use the car, preferably for longer runs. In between whiles it would also be a good idea to give it a few days with just desulphation and check the SG daily to make sure it's actually holding the charge.

It is reasonable to assume that the 1A the charger is putting out is just enough to overcome the internal resistance of the battery and with the desulphator connected could be considered a "float charge" - just enough to keep it fully charged and run the desulphator without overcharging/overheating the battery. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by zcar12 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:59 pm

Checked my battery this afternoon and the voltage has risen to 13.30 volts and the Specific Gravity has gone up to 1270, from 1250 5 days ago. I take this as a sign the the de-sulfator is working its magic, doing its job of desulfating the plates.

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by scoobyh123 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:57 pm

Excellent news Nick! :wink: :D Is that with or without the battery charger? :?
Cheers,
Dave

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by zcar12 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:08 pm

Thats with the charger connected Dave. The charger and the battery are now barely warm so I will leave it on charge till Saturday and take things from there. Looking like I may have achieved a good result.

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:31 am

Looking good Nick, fingers crossed! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by zcar12 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:37 pm

To up date the battery progress:

As of this morning, the battery shows 13.50 volts and and an SP of 1290. Two days ago, I noticed the voltage fluctuate from 13.35 to 13.25 and back again. The SP had also fallen to 1250 two days ago. So whatever is going on is not a straight line process. All the cells are gassing very strongly. By Tuesday, it will have been on charge for 3 weeks. My plan then is to remove the charger and see what it settles down to after a few days.

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:46 pm

This is all sounding very promising indeed Nick! :D

I fired up my battery charger today, not to charge a battery but to derust a towbar mounting bracket for the Volvo. Currently it's a very strange sight as the chargers leads appear from under the shed door, connect to a pair of jump leads that then disappear into a blue wheelie bin! :shock:

It crossed my mind that the desulphator might speed up the derusting process, still thinking about trying it at the moment...... :wink: :D

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/thre ... ing.12686/

There is a thread on here that links to the same thread on the MIG welding forum but i've used this technique for many things including the rear tie-bars, particularly the tracking adjusters that were freed off by it.

When i've got something a bit more manageable than a towbar bracket i'll experiment with the desulphator to see if it does speed the process up. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by zcar12 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:04 am

That is a is a very interesting thread link Dave, thanks for posting that. Sounds like you may soon have your own plating shop.

Had to take the battery off charge this morning as the Rover battery was flat and needs charging. Checked the old battery with a Hydrometer. All cells show 1275 and its at 13.53 volts. The Rover has not had much use over the past few months so not surprised it has gone flat. Its a 3 year old Lion Brand with 550CCA. Sealed Calcium with a magic eye. I will charge it for the next few days with the desulfator connected, cant do any harm.

My bike battery seems to have settled at 12.83 volts after 3 weeks. I used it to jump the Rover and it started first flick of the key. I was impressed for a battery that is only 8 ampere hour.

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by scoobyh123 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:28 pm

zcar12 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:04 am
That is a is a very interesting thread link Dave, thanks for posting that. Sounds like you may soon have your own plating shop.
I wish Nick! I might have a set of "Replichrome" plated wheels on my Sterling by now if i did! :lol:

Along those lines, can you guess what it is yet?

Image

More of a clue :

Image

The answer :

Image

It's half done, the side to the right of where the towball mounts. Looks like it will still need a little light wire brushing to remove the flaky bits of paint that are loose and to give the paint a good key. For now it's in the other way up to derust the other end.

Your old battery should settle down to about 12.6 - 12.7V and about 1260-1270 SG over the next few days and hold itself there. In a way it's quite handy the Rover needs its battery charged, gives you the opportunity to just leave the old one a few days and see what it does.

The bike battery seems to have recovered well too! Sometimes you only need a small battery in a good state of charge to jump another, the batteries in the generic jump packs are usually only 17Ah at the most, several only have a 12Ah battery. This is the sort of thing i mean :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-POWER-PAC ... SwMVdYGd~a

Image

I picked mine up a few years ago for a fiver without the charger. Also turned out the 17Ah battery had seen better days as had the croc clips on the ends of the leads.
As such i fitted a 20Ah battery, new croc clips and recently fitted a 12V 10W LED COB floodlight in place of the original lamp on the front of it. It also "just so happens" that the in-car charging lead for a 12V cordless drill i have works as a charging lead for it as well! That said, every so often i put it on trickle charge, just to be on the safe side.

What colour was the Magic Eye on your battery before charging this morning Nick? Usually if they're black or invisible the battery is beyond any sort of revival. If they're green (unlikely as that indicates fully charged) or yellow (need charging) then you stand a a good chance.
If it's only 3 years old you should be ok though! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

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zcar12
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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by zcar12 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:03 am

The magic eye on the Rover battery showed green when it failed to start and I remember that the interior lights seemed to be quite bright. Turning the key resulted in maybe a half turn of the engine and then a chattering noise from the solenoid. So the battery may be past its best, even though only 3 years old. We shall see. The engine oil is Shell Helix 10/40 fully synthetic so I would rule out oil drag as the cause of the non start. More likely lack of recent long runs caused my problem, and it was the classic "first cold day of November" where a weak or discharged battery will always show itself up.

Had no idea what your wheelie bin was used for, looks a better use than it was intended for. I have never needed a jump pack so I had no idea that there was a battery inside. I only saw a motor trader use one once that was plugged into the mains. (Did not buy that car) It was a ton of pulsating rust!

With regards to the battery that I am trying to rescue, its not good news. After 18 days of charging with the desulfator connected, after 1 hour disconnected, it showed only 10.93 volts so it has a way to go yet. Nil desperandum!

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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by scoobyh123 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:28 am

The Rover battery sounds as if it just needs a decent charge Nick, lack of use will cause exactly what you describe. Had the same with my Coupé recently after not using it for a couple of months.

Jumped it, gave it a good run (about 100 miles round trip) and it's been fine since.

However the N/S/F wheel bearing has decided to throw its toys out of the pram and sounds like the result of a breeding program between a banshee and a pig with its Jacobs in a meat grinder!
As such it's short runs only at the moment but more of that in a moment.

The battery you're trying to recover sounds as if it has a cell gone dead, although rare, sometimes they show up ok on the SG but are in fact still dead. When you consider the car battery is 6 x 2.2V cells, subtract 2.2 from 13.2 and you're left with 11V which is pretty much what it showed (10.93V) after an hour of being off charge.

We have 3 wheelie bins here, a grey/black one, a brown one and a blue one. The brown one is now redundant due to cutbacks (unless you pay an extra £40/year) but was for garden waste and anything else that could rot down for compost.
The black one is general rubbish, "dirty" packaging etc.

The blue one is meant to be for packaging materials, cardboard, plastic etc that can be recycled. However they seem to be extraordinarily fussy about what goes in it so i limit it to empty milk bottles (4 pint plastic), dog food tins, coffee tubs and cardboard with an occasional dodgy item well hidden.
With that in mind you're definitely right, it is a much better use than it was intended for! :lol:
Once the towbar is derusted, the next candidate for the blue bin will be a N/S/F hub carrier/upright so i can fit a new wheel bearing to it and bottom ball joint then fit it as a complete assembly to the car, rather than trying to get the upright off, remove and refit the bottom ball joint and wheel bearing and get it all refitted in a day.

As for that car the trader started with a mains powered jump-starter, i would have walked away as well. That's without seeing the rust! :wink: :lol: :D
Cheers,
Dave

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zcar12
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Re: Battery Desulfator

Post by zcar12 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:34 pm

Dave, your plan to build up a complete hub assembly off the car is approved. Having done ball joints and wheel bearings, it is a much easier way to do things and you have no time constraints. Much easier to just bolt the new assembly onto the car. Good thinking.

We are also plagued with the councils in Devon dreaming up whizzbang ideas for new recycling initiatives which require new bins. Some people living in flats have the boxes and bins forced on them with no place to put them. Scope to save some real dosh there, but then the budgets would be reduced due to under spending. It is madness but there is method to it.

You may be right that my old battery has a dud cell. I bought it new and it lasted me 9 years. Those days, I always used to charge it overnight every 3 months. Lost that habit now. I shall persevere with it for a while longer.

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