My first Vitesse

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whitelion58
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My first Vitesse

Post by whitelion58 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:16 pm

.. but at least it has the right number of cylinders and pedals...

This is, of course, an ex-Brad machine.

Just made the 90mile trip down to pick it up and am pretty pleased with the way it drove home. Engine, gearbox, suspension and steering all seem very good. As good as any I have driven in fact, despite having almost driven to the moon.

Overall body condition if pretty damned good. Very good for the money. Interior is lovely. Another Brad hybrid, but just the way I like it.

We stopped for fuel on the way home, and alarm bells rang in my head when the pump kept cutting out... A look underneath revealed a huge lake of petrol rapidly growing under the rear wheel! Got enough in the tank to make it home, but its going to need my second-best filler neck before I use it again!

The dashboard kept me amused with a colorful display all the way home. Speedo not working, ABS light on, S4 light flashing, Brake warning light flashing and PGMFI light too!

The PGMFI and speedo are the same cause - dead sender unit - so that will be swapped. ABS is odd, but I will put my Fast-Check on and see what it reports.
Brake light is odd - discs look good on a cursory glance, so maybe just thin pads.

So, a bit of minor fettling needed, but an otherwis pleasing result.

Image

Image

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Tim
'86 825 Sterling Saloon
'90 827 Si Fastback
'94 Sterling Coupe
+ others.
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If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

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Very Tall Brad
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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by Very Tall Brad » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:26 pm

Hi Tim

Thanks for taking this car on.

We knew about the speedo/S4 light illuminating and agreed it was a sensor. But I am not happy that you need to replace the filler neck. I put some petrol in yesterday without a problem and it recently pased an MoT - a really strict MoT. I am really sorry that you have this horrible job to do.

The car does drive really well. It is pretty well the smoothest and most eager 827 auto I have ever had. The ride is great and the whole car feels tough. The superior ride may be down, in part, to the tyres which are beefier than standard.

Overall, this car is a great base into which you could create a stunning final example. All the basics are there. If you need any bits, let me know.

Thanks again for taking it on.

Brad
No longer an 800 owner!

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whitelion58
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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by whitelion58 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:35 pm

No worries Brad, its all part of the fun!

I had a quick look at the filler and it appears to be in really sound condition, so must be some corrosion tucked up round the back. I will try to get a better look at it over the weekend.

Just to add spice to the weekend, Nicky's 75 diesel refused to start this morning, for the first time ever. I suspect it is the in-tank fuel pump, a snip at £230 for the cheapest I can find....
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'90 827 Si Fastback
'94 Sterling Coupe
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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by Very Tall Brad » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:21 pm

Oh dear...

It never rains just pours.
No longer an 800 owner!

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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by rosshenocsr » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:55 pm

whitelion58 wrote:No worries Brad, its all part of the fun!

I had a quick look at the filler and it appears to be in really sound condition, so must be some corrosion tucked up round the back. I will try to get a better look at it over the weekend.

Just to add spice to the weekend, Nicky's 75 diesel refused to start this morning, for the first time ever. I suspect it is the in-tank fuel pump, a snip at £230 for the cheapest I can find....
I am sure that you know but i will just mention that the 75 diesel has to low pressure (ie priming fuel pumps) the in tank one just brings fuel from the tank to the nearside inner wing pump which boosts the pressure to at least 120kpa (320kpa is the ideal ie new/good pump)
The intank pump will normally only stop the car from starting if the fuel level drops below 1/4 of a tank. The under boonet pump is good enough to suck the fuel from the tank and get the car started and up and running. Norammly the intank pump fails which goes undetected for sometimes months. This causes the under bonnet pump to become weakened and fail. This stops the car dead.
I have had a lot to do with the M47R engine mostly in Freelander 1, and have seen just about every fault possible with this engine.
Hope this has been of help to you and you dont think i am trying to teach you to suck eggs :)
2003 MG ZS 180 - Trophy Blue
1998 Rover 620 ti - Kinversand Orange

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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by whitelion58 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:17 pm

Hi Ross
not at all, always glad of input. I have a thread on the 75 forum now..

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s ... p?t=125893

Neither pump seem to energise when the ignition is on which does hint at an problem further up the chain. Fairly confident it is not a drowned ECU, the plenum is dry.

Really need to get this one fixed asap.
'86 825 Sterling Saloon
'90 827 Si Fastback
'94 Sterling Coupe
+ others.
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If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by rosshenocsr » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:02 pm

i have read the posts on the 75 forum and some are not so helpful.

couple of things cam sensor is not unheared of but it will not stop the fuel pumps from running. (cam sensor fault will give nonstart/cut out with fuel pump run and engine crank but no injection)

If your fuel pumps dont run then i would suspect a feed problem.

the tank pump has a 6 pin connector but you only need to worry about the white and purple wire in pin 2 and the black wire on pin 5. the white and purple is thr feed and earth is black. When the ignition is switch on you should have a 12volt feed on the white purlpe wire for about 30 sec to prime the system. earth on pin 5 should always be present.
the under bonnet pump (which as i said earlier is the most likely casue of the non start) has just a 2 pin plug diercty on top of the fuel pump. Pin 1 is black which is earth and pin 2 is white and purple which is feed. again like the tank pump you should have feed for about 30sec when ignition turned on. earth again should be present the whole time
If you have no feed to both pumps then you should check the fuse, which is share by both pumps, in the passenger fuse box location 20 and it is a 20amp. In the same fuse box is an engine ecu fuse which is a 10 amp and is in location 34. Check the fuses and check you have feed at the fuses.
if these are ok then you will need to check the relay. This is the big 8 pin relay on top of the passenger fusebox behind the glovebox, which only has 4 wires to it.
The relay is earthed by the engine ecu on the black and purple wire (pin 4) which engerises it. Power/feed is supplied to the realy from the fuse box on the purple and green wire. One feed to pin 8 on the relay (switched normally open side) and the other on the same purple and green wire which goes to the inertia switch and back out again to pin 6 on the relay. (some times the wire changes colour at the inertia switch to light green and brown) Pin 2 on the relay is white and purple and goes to the pumps.

if you pm me your address i can post you some wiring diagrams which may help you more than reading all of that.
2003 MG ZS 180 - Trophy Blue
1998 Rover 620 ti - Kinversand Orange

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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by whitelion58 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:29 pm

Brilliant - that is SO much more useful than any of the stuff I have been offered on the 75 forum. I can now check for feeds to the pumps, which is the first question I asked them yesterday morning! Thanks a mill. By the way, when I looked at the fusebox under the glovebox I saw a green and a yellow relay (which I changed) - so I am looking for another one? I will have another squint. Probably have to wait till tomorrow now... Had a fun day servicing my sons A-Class, changing drop links on the red fastback and working on the fuel neck of the Vitesse. Plus a lot of fruitless poking at the 75 of course..

On the Vitty I took the wheel off and felt up around the top of the neck - most of which was simply not there!

I had another one blasted and powder coated a few years ago, but it needed a bit of repair with araldite, filler and hammerite. That is now done so will pop that on in the morning. We did use the car for errands this morning, and apart from the Christmas tree effect on the dashboard it is a very nice drive.

Cheers
Tim
'86 825 Sterling Saloon
'90 827 Si Fastback
'94 Sterling Coupe
+ others.
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If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by rosshenocsr » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:35 pm

the relay is yellow and it will sit at the top of the fuse box towards the centre consle side. It is a 4 pin relay (i think) but it does fit on a base which has 8 wire holes. Only 4 of which are used on your car
2003 MG ZS 180 - Trophy Blue
1998 Rover 620 ti - Kinversand Orange

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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by whitelion58 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:43 am

*** R75 Discussion now continued on the Other Rover section **
'86 825 Sterling Saloon
'90 827 Si Fastback
'94 Sterling Coupe
+ others.
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If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by whitelion58 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:54 pm

So today I have been mostly messing with filler necks..

The easy part was removing the old one, which probably was a bit overdue for replacement..

Image

A quick look up inside the wing revealed this horror:

Image

.. yep, thats a nice big hole through the inner wing.

I cut and shaped a steel patch to cover but since I was a) very short of time and b)working over an open vented fuel tank I decided against a welded repair for today and resorted to a bodge - just glued it on with a load of filler and buried the edges in more. Sorted.

Here are old and "new" filler necks:

Image

The rest of the job was fairly straightforward. Miraculously all the clips retaining the hoses did not disintegrate and could be reused. The hardest part was breaking the seal between the hose and rusty pipes without damaging the hose, but got them all free in the end.

All now back in place and £72 of fuel in the tank, ready for the commuter run next week.

Cheers
Tim
'86 825 Sterling Saloon
'90 827 Si Fastback
'94 Sterling Coupe
+ others.
Image
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by Jango » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:55 pm

Can someone explain the reason for the up and down loop bit on the filler tube? I know it's part of the tank breather/fuel return system but what exactly is it's purpose?
'91 827 SLi Fastback - back on the road at last.
'89 Sterling - work in progress.....
'99 Sterling - on loan

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whitelion58
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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by whitelion58 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:06 pm

I agree it is far from clear just how essential it is. What appears to be a single loop is, of course, 4 pipes. As far as I understand it is a fuel/vapour seperator to allow the tank to vent to/from the charcoal canister in the engine bay. Seems a lot of complication for a small benefit. Cars got along fine without such systems for decades before these things came along. They just had small pipes venting to atmosphere and nobody worried about the fumes/environment. If that loop is ditched and the four ends of the rubber tubes plugged is the tank really going to explode on a hot day? Certainly most of those loops I have ever seen have been so full of holes they have obviously not been doing their job for years. Here is the page from the Rover manual that shows the double skinned pipe and a vague explanation of what it does:

Image

Tim
'86 825 Sterling Saloon
'90 827 Si Fastback
'94 Sterling Coupe
+ others.
Image
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

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whitelion58
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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by whitelion58 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:09 pm

Some fun and games touble-shooting the dash lights here:

http://www.rover800.info/forum/viewtopi ... =10&t=9662

Tim
'86 825 Sterling Saloon
'90 827 Si Fastback
'94 Sterling Coupe
+ others.
Image
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

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whitelion58
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Re: My first Vitesse

Post by whitelion58 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:59 pm

For many reasons - mostly the rubbish weather and being far too busy on other stuff - cars have had almost no attention lately, which is sad.
Anyway, today I was able to dedicate some time the the Vitesse, which has been patiently sitting in the shed since the autumn. Connected the battery and of course it started at first touch of the key. There are loads of small things left to fettle, but today I tackled the wipers which have been parking way too far up on the glass.

A bit of time stripping off the scuttle etc soon revealed this, though the wipers took some persuasion to come off the spindles

Image

One of the downsides of trying to store cars in the countryside is the inevitability that mice will find their way in:

Image

A cosy nest in the linkage void.

So, on to the investigation. There are at least 3 different, and incompatible, variations of the 800 wiper mechanism, and this car had an amalgam of all the wrong parts - mostly from a Mk 2. Perfectly understandable that bits are fitted to keep it working, but the result was not great. The fasteners that hold the motor onto its mounting plate were loose, fasteners were completely missing between the spindles and the scuttle - overall not too pretty.

The main difference between Mk1 and Mk2 systems is that Mk 2 just park on the glasss, but Mk1 tuck down behind the bonnet. This is acheived by an extra bit of mechanism on the first link - see here:

Image

In the pic is the motor, then the Mk1 link and the standard Mk2 item that is more common. The way the mechanism works to tuck the wipers down on their last stroke is that the motor actually reverses its direction of rotation which activates a cam with the effect of making that link 3 or 4 mm longer when rotating in that direction. Just enough to increase the sweep angle and tuck the wipers away. When they are switched on the cam returns, the linkage shortens, and the wipers describe their normal arc on the glass. All very clever.

The other variation of design was when the size of the ball joints was increased slightly sometime late in Mk1 production - which means not all links are interchangeable.

Fortunately I have a box full of assorted wiper linkages and was eventually able to sort out a compatible set without too much slop in them.

Getting it all together and working took some time, since there are no datums for where to fit the link to the motor, or the wipers to the spindle - so had to figure out a method from first principles. Eventually, after a few failed attempts, it all works as Rover intended and parks nicely again.

A small victory perhaps, but every little helps.

Tim
'86 825 Sterling Saloon
'90 827 Si Fastback
'94 Sterling Coupe
+ others.
Image
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

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